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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was watching Sunday Morning and the gal that does the comentairy was saying to Boycott the gas companys during the 4th of July weekend.. by not driving or buying gas during that weekend. letting them know were not going to take the high prices anymore??

Does anyone think this well do anygood?? If it would do some good I'd do it.. for sure.... anything to get the price of gas back down its getting reduculass. I'm already getting ready to start using my Kids old bike once school is out and I can come later to work. I'd do it now but 6am is to early to pedal to work for me anyway all tho there's no traffic to deal with at that time in the morning.

Then there was a guy on Date line I think talking about Ethonal and how it would or could be priced at .70c a gallon and we could do in 5yrs and not be dependent on oil anymore.

Whats your opeion??

Thanks
tim
 

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Tim,
I agree it would be nice to be able to boycott and see lower prices but it won't do anything to help.
Everytime gas prices go up, there is someone out there who comes up with the boycott idea. Problem is, it doesn't work...period. Why doesn't it work you say...simple, the day or so after the boycott everyone will resume driving again...so they may lose a profit for a few days, but the fuel companies know darn well that you will be back and so will your money. You want to affect the profits of a fuel company...give up your car or truck, buy an all electric car (hybrids still use gas). But I don't know about you, I'm not able to afford an all electric, and in reality it wouldn't work for me, I drive a long distance to work, and they have no accomodations for me to "plug in" a car there.
Ethanol, I like the thought of it, in the long run it's cleaner...and can also help out the farmers, giving them a cash crop to grow . But that is still a few years away, not to many states have an ethanol dispensing station around here...just plain ol' gas and diesel in my area. Now the cost of the new stations might be reflected in the initial cost of Ethanol, unless it is possible to "re-use" the regular pumps after cleaning them...and I don't know if they can do that, but hopefully they can so it stays inexpensive. But 70 cents a gallon, it is doubtful that it would be sold for that low of a price...would be nice though! But the gov't know we are now paying three dollars + a gallon, so they won't make it that cheap once it's in full swing production, but anything around the 1.50 to 2.50 a gallon would still feel cheap now a days(plus you have to figure it is the fuel companies that may still be in control of the Ethanol..so don't expect anything too low in cost)
So the only thing to do is minimize the profits of the gas companies, carpool every now and then, drive a few miles and hour slower...heck, in most cases just tune up your car and be surprised at the better mileage...the fuel cost is a problem no doubt, but a boycott...they just don't work...at least not that I have ever seen or heard.
But since we are touching base on the Ethanol issue...I am going to hijack the thread for a minute and ask these questions:

1. Can an engine that runs on regular gasoline be converted to run on Ethanol?

2. Wasn't Ethanol a fuel used during the 1920's and 30's...when they used to say in the old movies, you want Ethyl? Or is that another fuel derivative?

Okay, I now jump of my soap box after giving my .02 cents worth and return you all to the regular post.

Mike





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Humphrey351 on 5/8/06 10:20pm ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
""Quote
Humphrey351

2. Wasn't Ethanol a fuel used during the 1920's and 30's...when they used to say in the old movies, you want Ethyl? Or is that another fuel derivative? """

Well When I worked in Service stations in the 60's When you said You want Ethyl. it ment premeum fuel instead of regular we just had two grades then of gas. The pumps were marked Regular and Ethyl (They may have said Premeum in stead of Ethyl been too long ). I don't realy know where the Ethyl realy came from tho... I could ask my dad next time I see him he's 92yrs young and may remember..

Good points on your reply tho. Makes sence to me...
Tim


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pedal2themetal45 on 5/8/06 10:39pm ]</font>
 

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Ethyl back then was just Ethylmethylkeytone and was an additive to the fuel to upgrade it's values, but was still refined the same way as the standard fuels...

Production costs for Ethanol to be manufactured on a scale wide enough to make only 1/2 the U.S. population happy, would cost almost as much as the current National Debit, and will hardly come to pass unless something very drastic were to happen to the current condition of our Globe, and all the major countries contributed twards it....


FE
 

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A better way to boycott gas is to not buy EXON, ever, which is the biggest oil company and the biggest importer from the middle east. If you can affect the big guy you will have an impact, plus there are other providers to buy your gas, so its not really affecting you as a user.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
OK so what are all the names EXON is sold under.
 

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I fear we are all being subjected to the boiling frog syndrome. You see if you drop a frog in 300 degree water he will jump right out. If you put him in cool water and slowly raise the temperature, he will be boiled before he realizes what happened.

We are all complaining about gas being 3 bucks a gallon. Anyone remember when we complained about it being a buck? Two bucks? See, boiling frog syndrome. If the oil comapnies keep it at just under 3 bucks for a few months, then they will raise it to just slightly over 3 bucks and people will grumble but will pay it. And then it will climb right through to 4 bucks.

Want to do something about it? Stop driving those gas guzzling SUVs. Tell you congressman to raise the CAFE standards a gallon a year for the next 10 years. Think about it. Back in the late sventies you could buy a diesel VW that got 50 MPG or a gas Civic that got the same mileage. Where are they today?

So, shut up, and put up! It will never change because people will complain and do nothing else like vote the bums out of office.

Later!
Mr. Ed
 

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The problem isn't the price of oil, the problem is the gas companies lining their pockets with greed. Price of gasoline is climbing WAY faster that the price of a barrel of oil... so what does that tell you? Just a bunch of filthy rich bastards wanting to be even more rich.
 

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The biggest problem is that refineries are running at capacity, and no one wants to build new ones because of the environmental implications. Thats why gas prices jumped after the hurricanes hit last year and some refineries had to be shut down.

I know everyone has probably heard it before, but gas is still one of the cheapest fluids to buy.
 

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Electric companies just raised their rates here!
 

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Sesame Street Raised their rent! Mr. Snuffleuffagus is living in a Box in Woodland Park, Electric Company is NOT on channel 9 anymore! The Wonder Twins have Lost their Powers!

THE WORLD IS ABOUT TO IMPLODE!

But I'm still going to buy GASOLINE for my new '61 Falcon I bought just today! (just not until I put an engine in it ... lol
)

That is all...

FE

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: FEandGoingBroke on 5/9/06 5:28am ]</font>
 

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If you don't buy from Exxon...they just re-route the shipment to one of the other suppliers.

Oil, Gas, Kerosene, all go thru the same pipelines. It’s no different than buying sugar, corn, potatoes…its basically all the same stuff, sure there is bad quality and good quality, but gas is gas, sugar is sugar, oil is oil ...its a commodity. It only becomes "Exxon" once they put it in the ground (or tank) at the station. Up until that point it could just as easily be use to fill up the tank at Union 76, Arco, BP, etc. Matter of fact, if you notice independent or small chain gas stations may have any number of marked or unmarked trucks pulling in to fill their tanks. They buy from the spot market, were whatever is left over from the big boys is sold off at a reduced price, just to keep the system flowing.

Spot boycotts don't work when it comes to commodities. You have to make them sweat over a whole state or region for it to be effective. As I said, once its in the pipeline or in the truck going to a station...they are committed. Fro it to work, even a little bit…you have to cripple the delivery system by keeping all the station tanks full...all, meaning they have no where to store it in tanks at the refinery or at the local station and it isn't being used.

What will happen as it always does, they will drop the price 10- 15 cent a gallon, a bunch of people will fall for the Okie doke, they will sell enough to cleanout the lines. Then cut back on refining even more, which gives them the chance to jack up the price a little more.

We see that every year in CA. They preach about conservation, people insulate, buy energy star appliances, get solar heaters and solar panels,...then the utility companies go to the board and say..."since people are using less fuel, electricity, gas, whatever - we are not making enough profit to keep up maintenance, build the infrastructure - whatever - So we need a rate increase"!

That is the way it works, if you use the same, they say a rate increase is needed for maintenance, If you use more, they say the rate increase is needed because of dwindling supplies...if you use less, they say they aren't making enough to maintain the infrastructure.

All the while, its "Joe working man" that gets it in the shorts. Rich don't particularly care, they just jack up their prices to make up the difference. The professionals don't care as much, ‘cause they buy a new Honda, Bemmer or Benz every year anyway…notice they screaming is about 15 – 20 mpg trucks and SUV’s – not 10 – 12 mpg Rolls Royce, V-12 Mercedes or any other $100,000+ super car? Curious isn’t it?. If you are a contractor, builder, work in town and live in the ‘burbs or country...you will pay for energy no matter what.

Thats the big issue; this country doesn't have reliable mass transit (and it will not work in any place other than Urbanized areas) ... buses, passenger trains that service every back country town, village or trading post are not feasible in the USA. There are many places that it takes an hour or more just to get to the store, a doctor or kids to school.

All these shortsighted, myopic elitist anal retentive do-gooders think because they live in a city...everyone else does too.

This country is bigger than most of Europe...so how the heck can a European solution expect to be the same as ours? By the way, come to find out they use natural gas in Brazil, as well as Alcohol fuel vehicles. As I mentioned in an earlier post. Alcohol comes with its own set of problems, first it takes twice as much (by volume) to equal gasoline, meaning you have cut your millage in half. If you have run alcohol in your racer, you know it absorbs water like a sponge, so there goes the idea of filling up the tank and driving it when eer you feel ready. It doesn't store very well.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Beoweolf on 5/9/06 8:30am ]</font>
 

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Beoweolf, I like the way you think. We are all forgetting that the country could federalize the oil industry. All of the companies in the nation is controled by other countries.

Sure people in this country own stock in the oil companies, but the controling interest is somewhere else. Therfore the lions share of the dollars that we spend is leaving the country.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rayell on 5/9/06 8:35am ]</font>
 

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One problem with ethenol is that by the time all the fields are plowed, planted, harvested, and the grain shipped, you have burnt as much petoliem as just the cars it will fuel. Somebody told me they saw a study that proved that there would be more petrolium burnt they it would produce in ethenol.

Nowdays MOST farmland is being farmed, just think if we needed fuel to replace all the gas being burnt. We would need much much more farmland.

Right now they say that ethenol would be 70 cents a gallon, that is with todays grain prices, once the demand goes up from all of the ethenol being produced, grain prices will be way up, and it will be nearly as expensive, it is renewable which in the very long run, yes it is good, but i doubt it would save us any money soon.
 

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I find it funny that the same year gas reached an all time high, oil companies posted record high profits.

The problem is, the only corporations with the ability to refine ethanol on the scale needed for nation-wide consumption are the oil industries. There are no refining plants in existence that can pass the capacity of the oil industry.

Mr. Ed is dead on with the "boiling frog" idea. Gradual changes aren't noticed. If we walked outside tomorrow and gas was $5.00 a gallon, the change would be almost immediate. People would find other ways of getting around.

If you look in any history book, it'll tell you that the invention of the automobile caused people to leave the cities and live in the suburbs - they could commute, working in the city and coming home to nice quiet suburbia.

Thats why public transport doesn't work. The sheer size of the US coupled with the spread-out nature of people makes public transport virtually impossible.

I've said a lot on alternative energy methods, but what it comes down to is reducing the consumerism of our culture - the trade deficit isn't the governments fault, despite urgings. It's the fault of consumers, whose drive to get the most for the least has outsourced things from the country - a trade deficit is simply importing more than you export. The US has almost no exports. The importance of "Made in the USA" is gone, and that importance has much less to do with pride than it does simple economic survival. Given current rates, America is simply going to shop itself into bankruptcy.

The obsession with stuff has got to be ended, or it will end of it's own accord. The more consumers invest back into American markets the more those markets will flourish - enabling them to export a product that is valuable to the world.

Its a deep hole, and I'm not going to bother getting into it more than I have, but gas prices are just a fraction of what I call the "Me" generation's problems.
 

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If a big oil company makes record profits where does that money go.......to Mr. Exxon?!?! No, it goes to the stock holders.....possibly your neighbor, or me or you and some of those profits go to Uncle Sam in the form of taxes. I don't hear anyone complain about the price of bottled water and the profits of the water companies per gallon are enormous compared to that of the oil companies. Crude oil prices are set by commodities brokers, not the oil companies. They base the price at which they buy and/or sell on projections of future demand both near and long term. So also does the commodities brokers that buy corn, wheat, etc.. If we all drove hybrids tomorrow, the simple truth is, world wide oil consumption would continue to rise, as countries like China move into the modern post industrial world. Imagine, 5-billion people who are striving to have a lifestyle similar to the USA. What a market place that will be for US and the rest of the world. When an alternative fuel or energy source is finally perfected, and I believe it will be the USA that will do that, then we will be able to sell/rent/license that technology to the rest of the world. We, the USA, are innovators. That is what has gotten us to where we are and that is what will keep us here. God Bless America!
 

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Thats all good...except, China is not well known for respecting intellectual rights, nor will any other country that sees any lasting benefit from ignoring any technological advance, license or no license. Do you actually think China is paying the equivenlent of $3.50 a gal for gasoline; Mexico, Bolivia, Columbia? The issue is not just the price for fuel, its also price fairness. We have one of the best distribution systems for fuel in the world. The overhead to move fuel from harbor to tank, averaged over the entire country is cents per barrel. Yet, this infrastructure is used to justify raising our prices way past any reasonable ROI. Its gouging!

As a nation we allowed laws of imment domain to allow the construction of pipelines all over the country. We subsidised the construction and exploitation of oil fields both in this country and others. We even used military force, when needed to protect and provide for transport of Oil which serves not only us, but the world. If law wasn't established in the middle east or central america, how do you think development of oil resources in those regions would have developed? If anything, we deserve preferential treatment when it comes to oil.

Despite reality, the world is of the mistaken belief that the US is an open wallet ... to be dipped into for disaster relief, medical care, food...etc. But mutual respect? Never seems to happen.

From what I see, the US is treated like the only rich kid in a public school. If you share what you have with them, they come to either expect it, like you owe them something or demand it, because obviously you have too much and should feel obligated to "give something back". If you don't share, then they point that out as evidence that you are heartless.

You can't win either way. So counting on the world to respect us if we do come up with a solution is just another exercise in wishful thinking. Hell, there are still countries in the EU that resent our involvement in WWII. We pulled China's chestnuts out of the fire, and they do everything they can to rub our face in the mud as a thank you.

We aren't completely blamless in fostering this hatred, but we sure don't deserve it. We are the country the world loves to hate.

These views are expressed for discussion ... the writer disavows any claim of merit, pro or con, in the absolute truth of any specific point. If Big oil can claim its only doing whats right, by gouging the public, I think we can claim, as financiers for Big Oil, a "founders" rate, below the market price. We had a deal with Big Oil, they are breaking it...now we want our discount offically recognized.
 

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On 2006-05-11 10:30, Beoweolf wrote:
Thats all good...except, China is not well known for respecting intellectual rights, nor will any other country that sees any lasting benefit from ignoring any technological advance, license or no license. Do you actually think China is paying the equivenlent of $3.50 a gal for gasoline; Mexico, Bolivia, Columbia? The issue is not just the price for fuel, its also price fairness. We have one of the best distribution systems for fuel in the world. The overhead to move fuel from harbor to tank, averaged over the entire country is cents per barrel. Yet, this infrastructure is used to justify raising our prices way past any reasonable ROI. Its gouging!

As a nation we allowed laws of imment domain to allow the construction of pipelines all over the country. We subsidised the construction and exploitation of oil fields both in this country and others. We even used military force, when needed to protect and provide for transport of Oil which serves not only us, but the world. If law wasn't established in the middle east or central america, how do you think development of oil resources in those regions would have developed? If anything, we deserve preferential treatment when it comes to oil.

Despite reality, the world is of the mistaken belief that the US is an open wallet ... to be dipped into for disaster relief, medical care, food...etc. But mutual respect? Never seems to happen.

From what I see, the US is treated like the only rich kid in a public school. If you share what you have with them, they come to either expect it, like you owe them something or demand it, because obviously you have too much and should feel obligated to "give something back". If you don't share, then they point that out as evidence that you are heartless.

You can't win either way. So counting on the world to respect us if we do come up with a solution is just another exercise in wishful thinking. Hell, there are still countries in the EU that resent our involvement in WWII. We pulled China's chestnuts out of the fire, and they do everything they can to rub our face in the mud as a thank you.

We aren't completely blamless in fostering this hatred, but we sure don't deserve it. We are the country the world loves to hate.

These views are expressed for discussion ... the writer disavows any claim of merit, pro or con, in the absolute truth of any specific point. If Big oil can claim its only doing whats right, by gouging the public, I think we can claim, as financiers for Big Oil, a "founders" rate, below the market price. We had a deal with Big Oil, they are breaking it...now we want our discount offically recognized.

Wow, so many subject changes in one discussion. Beowolf, I agree with you on this....the USA is being treated like the only rich kid in school. But, I think there is less "hatred" and more "envy" by parts of the world than anything. Our "popular" media has done a great job of making the USA look like the bully of the world and has not focused at all on the humanitarian aid that we generously give to the rest of the world.

I wish oil were cheaper......heck, I wish Ferrari's were cheaper. But it's the high cost of oil that will provide the catalyst for innovation, not wishful thinking. Okay, I'm afraid were approaching the deletion point for post. God Bless America!
 

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yes, there are many "expansion points" in the above discussion, But no more so than the various points being proffered as justification for near double in price for oil in the last 5 years, 50% increase in crude oil prices in the last year.

You can't justify the enormous profits, at the expense of the public, being reaped by Big oil, in the USA. There is no justification for a small group of investors, no matter their capitalization cost (at the expense of the public) to unilaterally decide how much profit they deserve. If there is a "World price" for oil, it might better be based on distribution costs, Taxes and fees...not just what the market can be forced to bear.

There is/was some intent on my part, to push the envelope a little to illustrate how justification can be skewed out of all proportion to reality.

Various countries base their energy fees on criteria that differ from the USA. Just as many states have different fees for license fees for cars. In the EU, it is common to have a road use tax, there are taxes built into the cost of gasoline, which make their costs much higher, but there is a reason for those costs. There are also exceptions; strategic energy users are given a reduce taxes and fees rate. Transportation businesses, agricultural user are taxes at a different rate than passenger cars. In France, Germany these fuels are "marked" with dyes that prevent their being siphoned off into the public sector. If fuel destined for Agricultural use is found in a passenger car the fine fines are sever, they are not very lenient to those that try to work the system.

In the USA, due to the size of the country we chose another path. Our tax structure for energy reflects that choice. It is insane to try to equate a gallon for gallon, or liter for liter cost in the USA vs. The world, without taking that into account.

If you want to rejoice at higher gas prices, at least based the increase on the same rational. Remove the individual state fees and taxes for license, personal property, etc and bundle them into energy taxes and fees...as they do in the EU, which is cited as the "Gold Standard" by misguided mileage mavens. I could agree to that, at least the results of that kind of solution would make mileage, energy cost be directly reflective on those that use them. Moreover, it would stop rewarding these jackals with a profit based on unjustified differences in tax structures.

I would be more than happy to stop posting on this subject, when the complete ramifications of the current prices in the USA are regularly included in the discussion. Basing the price differential as the only justification as proof that we were getting a free ride is a false argument and shouldn't be allowed to go unchallenged.

Our hobby, as automotive enthusiasts, makes us very sensitive to things like fuel costs, emissions and our sense of fair play should be sickened when this kind of abuse is allowed to spread, under the guise of some mistaken belief of ultimate fairness.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Beoweolf on 5/12/06 3:08am ]</font>
 

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Oh well, it's been a while since one's been deleted anyways. We can't let the admin drop their guard.


As far as America being the innovators, I think that's true absolutely... in the past. Now, however, I'm not so sure. Which companies successfully developed the first hybrid cars? Which companies provide us with our technology and advances in cell phones, MP3 players, and other consumer electronics? As far as I know, none of the recent (10 years) technological breakthroughs have occured in the US - they've been a product of Japan. (whose economy, strangely, is doing bad too, but thats for another topic)

Markets are finicky things. Just because you develop the best technology doesn't mean it will even sell, it requires the right je ne sais quoi to catch on and bring record profits.

I do beleive the US will develop the most permanent solution for oil... eventually. But what we do need is something to catalyze us to action - slowly rising gas prices will make everyone uncontented, but not angry enough to stop paying.

Demand drives the economy, demand drives pricing. If there's no demand for an alternate fuel (whether that be because people don't want it or can't want it because they have no car to put it in.

If we had another oil embargo directed at the US, we'd have new attempts at alt energy popping up everywhere - the US has proved time after time that we work our best work in a crunch. Rubber was embargoed during WWII, and we couldn't make plane tires. As fast as you could say "oh no" scientists had developed and implemented synthetic rubber, and our planes could once again land.

If we get a similar oil embargo, we'd have scientists coming out of the works to develop something new (partially because they'd know the demand for such a technology would be enormous and they'd make a fortune.) But with the slow way prices are increasing, we may not have quite so much capital to do that in the future.

As far as the US's global popularity, hatred and envy aren't that much different. A country wants something - you see someone else has it, you complain that "its not fair" because you don't have it, and you develop a way to alter your thinking enough (over time) where it becomes everyone elses fault that you were denied what you should have because it's your right. It turns into hatred, over time, regardless of the humanity of the country you're hating. I think were seeing the beginning stages of this "hatred/envy" in the form of terrorism - we're stilll in the early stages.

The US, when in a global spotlight like it is, can do no good. Tens of thousands clamor that we stop the genocide in Darfur, and many of those same tens of thousands claim that we shouldn't even be helping in "other places."

We give billions in aid to many many countries, in fact we gave a great deal to all of Europe after WWII in an attempt to revitalize their economy.

But you will always have someone else that sees that money being given out, and asks "Why don't I get my piece of the pie?" Having the US seen as a "pie" is dangerous because then people see the money then as theirs to be taken, because its their right to have what the others have.

Thats just the nature of the beast. You can't please everyone, if we did, the US wouldn't exist.

To sum it all up - the US needs to stop buying everything from China - we can't continue operating on a gigantic trade deficit, its impossible. If the United States were to suddenly lose all of its money, China's economy would stagnate immediately. Remember Japan in the 50's? Almost all the stuff they shipped to the US was garbage. It took them about 30 years and they started to be taken seriously.

Well, at the rate technology is accelerating, its not going to take China 30 years to be recognized as quality - they will begin producing equal quality goods to the rest of the world market in a short while. Once people start buying Chinese cars, Chinese equipment, etc, it isn't going to slow down, the amount of money we send to China will speed up.

Of course, you have to consider, by the same token, as the standard of living raises in China, the better the rest of the world market has the ability to do, as a billion consumers will start having enough disposable income to purchase goods. If the US can develop a technology that we can export to China, especially one that can reduce dependence on oil, I have no doubt the Chinese would go for that. It just comes down to developing it - since China is drawing more and more oil, AND its in the first stages of developing an energy infrastructure, introducing an alternative energy source and a method of delivery could work wonders.

Of course it could also turn China into a mass of economic power that sucks up the rest of the world like "The Blob," but hey, nothing risked, nothing gained right?

I think China can either be the key, or the hammer that unlocks or destroys the rest of the world. Because of the enormous demand that is just waking up there, the feasibility of alternate fuels jumps immensely - infrastructure and distribution systems could be tested there - would they work on a large scale basis, and be cost effective, etc, and then slowly implemented in the US. We just need a decent alt energy solution, and a company willing to try it in China. We could bring some profits back to this side of the pond.

The US is an innovator. They are less so than they have been in the past, because we are pretty complacent - theres no crunch to force us into action (and when we go, we go brilliantly) We just need a kick in the pants to get us to do it.
 
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