[Thordane65]

OK, this solid cam had better be good... cause its causing me to age rapidly. LOL
The next chapter in my cam swap saga continued shortly after I re-intstalled the heli-coiled crank / balancer. I installed the pan and flipped the motor over to start with the heads... I have to install my new comp 950-16 springs matched to my solid cam into my world JR heads. The retainers on my world JR heads were much too small for the wider comp springs... so I got the matching 740 steel retainers from Comp.
Next I went to see about keepers... and found that I need the 10 degree 11/32 keepers for my valves. Heres my "new" issue:
1. The keepers I can get come with either a recess or not. I have no idea what that means... is that in reference to the recess in the retainer or the valve???

2. I decided to look at spring installed hieghts. I know I have to install my new Comp springs at 1.90, but then I looked at my current springs specs that are in the heads now and they are installed at 1.81. So the question is, do I need new longer valves? Or how do I do this?

As you can tell, this is my first venture into the world of solid cams and changing springs....

HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Thanks!




_________________

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thordane65 on 5/26/06 4:42am ]</font>

 

[n2omike]

Not sure about the recess, but I might be able to help you with the installed height.

Comp sells keepers that will give you an extra 0.050" or 0.060". The new retainers might also set up a bit more than the current ones, and give some more room. If that is not enough, the spring seats can be cut down a bit to lower the spring in the head. Of course, 0.100" longer valves will also fix your problem. Speaking of valves, I believe the World Products heads use Chevy length valves, which are shorter than Ford units. Ford valves are just a tad over 5". Something like 5.04", but I'd have to check. You might want to measure to see what you have.

Good Luck!

 

[dfree383]

Talk with a comp cams rep. they can tell you everything you need to know and how to measure everything.

 

[Thordane65]

Thanks Guys...
Looks like I have a couple of options...
1. machine the pockets
2. new longer valves
3. .050 locks with another .50 retainer.

Plus, I need to change out my valve seals... the ones I have are too wide for the inner spring to go over... I may need to machine that out as well if I cannot find a thinner seal.
I know in the end it will be all worth it... but its frustrating!
Thanks for all the help!!!!
Trevor

 

[Fomoco8]

the recess is for lash caps if you decide to use them

 

[My427stang]

1. What is the spring rate of the new springs, the lift at the valve with whatever rockers you use, the lash you plan to run and the closed pressure at 1.90? You may not need to do anything. Come up with that and I can tell you more

2. The recess in the keepers are for lash caps, I prefer to buy the recessed ones in case I need lash caps, you dont have to run with them, but if you decide you need them for valve train geometry you are there

There are lots of small seals, check out http://www.valveseal.com/gas-seal.htm Try to find a viton seal for your application, its MUCH better than Teflon

_________________
70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, 10.4:1, solids, Stage 2 Edelbrock heads, RHP RPM intake, 1000 Holley HP, TKO-600, 3.70's, A/C
71 F100 4x4 shortbed 390 hot rod
02 F250 Powerstroke 4x4, chipped, exhaust, etc trailer puller

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: My427stang on 5/26/06 6:02am ]</font>

 

[Thordane65]

I will try to answer as best I can… as I am pretty green with this stuff

1.What is the spring rate of the new springs, the lift at the valve with whatever rockers you use, the lash you plan to run and the closed pressure at 1.90? You may not need to do anything. Come up with that and I can tell you more

The specs on the 950-16 springs are 1.90 installed height, 1.464OD and 0.724ID, .600 max lift, 333lb rate and 1.200” coil bind
I am using 1.6 aftermarket roller rockers and comp cams hardened pushrods with comp guide plates.
My solid cam specs are:
INT EXH
Gross lift .536 .545
Dura @ .050 236 242
Lobe lift .3350 .3410
Lobe sep 110.0
Lash is .012 (I’m assuming cold?)

Thanks

 

[n2omike]

Some 1.7 rockers sure would be nice on that new Extreme Energy Solid Flat Tappet camshaft you've got there!

They would take the lift to 0.570"I/0.580"E

Do you already have the camshaft? I like it, and have had one just like it planned for my car in the near future. It looks like Peruch (sp) in the dyno section has one like it too... but ground on a 105 lobe seperation angle.

With aluminum heads, the lash will grow wider as the engine warms up. Expect it to grow around 0.006". I believe you can go all the way down to 0.015" hot lash on that camshaft. Call Comp to check for sure. 0.012" would be a good cold setting to start out with. Check it hot, and make adjustments from there. You can't go wrong with around 0.018" hot. That's a very safe hot lash for your cam and combo.

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/LC2005/2005LobeCatalog.pdf

Good Luck!

 

[Thordane65]

Thanks Mike... for all the help.
I took your advice and got it custom ground from Comp.
I have the cam and lifters (they all turned nice and freely in the bores) installed in the short block. It sure was a lot more agressive looking than the 270H I pulled out.

 

[My427stang]

OK, here is the deal

Closed pressure for 1.90 from comps site = 133 lbs
Closed pressure for 1.81 using the 333 lb rate = 163 lbs
Closed pressure for 1.85 from the Comp chart = 149 lbs
Closed pressure for 1.86 (just to be sorta exact) = 147 lbs

At lift on the exhaust side that puts you at 330 lbs. Those springs are on the high side pressure-wise all around to me, but not heinous. I like to see 135/290, maybe 300 on a street strip car. They will also drop about 10% first time they get hot too.

If it were me, I'd probably run them with .050 retainers and then make sure I broke the cam in real well without the inner spring. Another thing you can do is look for a retainer that has a bit less step on the inner spring, that will lower the pressure slightly. There are many retainer designs.

Any chance you have a good head guy that could check your spring pressures on a machine and help you map out the parts you need? I am happy to help, but without measuring exactly, and seperating the inner from the outer for math, its a bit tough

Last option, does it have an out spring, flat damper, and an inner spring? You could always have someone measure pressure without the inner spring at 1.81 and if you have the pressure you need, save the inner springs to throw at neighbors dog LOL

However, the bottom line is this, it would be pretty easy right now to call Comp, tell them you need a 1.81 installed height spring with the OD of your original retainers, and the proper open and closed pressure and be done with the thinking

Something like a 914-16 as a quick guess but I dont know the OD of your original springs

 

[Thordane65]

Wow... thanks for the info!!!!
I do have a guy that can set up the heads and check them. It would be great if they were close at that installed hieght!

The OD of the springs in the heads now is 1.250 @ 1.810 installed height.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Thordane65 on 5/26/06 7:47am ]</font>

 

[n2omike]

1.250" is for the old springs, not the #950's. (just to make sure everybody is clear on that)

I use the #950 springs on the street installed at 1.900" without issue. I wouldn't want to install them much, if any shorter than that, though.

Break-in is critical.

Good Luck!

_________________
66 mustang
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: n2omike on 5/26/06 7:55am ]</font>

 

[My427stang]

Have you had the current springs measured? or is it a sure thing those springs that came on the heads wont work?

 

[Thordane65]

I have not had them measured.... but they are the stock world JR springs and when I gave the Comp guys my info on them he told me they would not work... and he recommended 950-16 spring.

 

[My427stang]

I would take the time to check yourself. It sure would be easy if they were the proper pressures, and if theyw ere designed for hyd rollers, they probably arent far off

 

[My427stang]

They do look a little light

1.250'' single spring, 100# @ seat,.560'' max. lift.
Valve Spring Seats: Machined for 1.250'' springs
Manley 7° chrome moly retainers, keepers

You could shim them a bit, but they are on the light side because they dont have a lot of lift available

 

[n2omike]

My427Stang, I LOVE your car, and you've made some excellent points, but I don't believe a tiny little 1.250" spring is going to be up to controlling that cam at an estimated shift point of 6800 rpm.... especially after they are good and 'broken in'. Those are just the cheap, mild springs that come with the assembled heads. CHEAP being the key word here.

I'd install the 950's at 1.900" then get some 1.7 rockers.

Good Luck!

 

[My427stang]

Mike, you are probably right, especially with that mild closed pressure.

I expect the 1.25's to work, I just didnt want him to rule them out without having numbers to back them up.

I did see some beehives though, maybe they'd work out but I have never experimented with them, a SBC guy I am friends with loves them, and they are small diameter, low installed height

 

[My427stang]

You know as I walked away and thought about it, if you have the springs, Mike is right, getting them to 1.90 is a good bet. However, I see those heads have machined pockets for 1.25 springs, will you have to have the heads machined?

I never had a set of World Products heads, but the specs for the heads clearly say machined for 1.25 springs

If thats the case, there you go, let them cut to make room for the spring and a nice thin cup, you'll get better registration of the spring against the guide and a cooler running spring to boot

_________________
70 Sportsroof, 427 FE/489 cid, 10.4:1, solids, Stage 2 Edelbrock heads, RHP RPM intake, 1000 Holley HP, TKO-600, 3.70's, A/C
71 F100 4x4 shortbed 390 hot rod
02 F250 Powerstroke 4x4, chipped, exhaust, etc trailer puller

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: My427stang on 5/26/06 8:46am ]</font>

 

[n2omike]

I'd like to try out a set of Beehives as well. They make one that has 130 on the seat that should be about right. I believe the installed height for those is 1.800" too.

They list a slightly lighter spring for similar applications... I belive it is part number 26918.

If I were installing a set on MY car, I'd probably go with the 130 pounders, though... as small blocks, especially 306's like to rev!

Hmmm.....

_________________
66 mustang
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: n2omike on 5/26/06 8:48am ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: n2omike on 5/26/06 8:48am ]</font>