Help...Need a starter to fit my 302 with Flowtech headers

BBCFORD · May 8, 2006

I am trying to install Mustang Flowtech headers, Summit part #12104FLT on my 302 with C4 auto transmission. Physically I got the Mustang headers in the engine bay of my 1980 Thunderbird. It was a lot of work but I managed to get them squeezed in there. The stock starter would not clear, so I tried a Summit Protorque mini starter. No matter how I indexed it...it still got in the way of the primaries. It needs about another 1/4 or more clearance to be able to bolt up. This is after I heated up one of the primaries and dinged it in as much as I am willing to. Anymore and I will defeat the purpose of the bigger and equal length tubes. Summit Racing's tech crew gave up on trying to find a starter that will fit. My only option is seriously denting one of the primaries even more, but this will totally kill the flow. I even took a file across the back end of the Protorque's solenoid cap, to flatten it out a bit, hoping to get some clearance. Naturally those aluminum caps are pretty thin and all I managed to do is file a small hole in it. Can anyone tell me what starter you suggest that will clear these headers? I thought about a Fordmotorsport starter, but Summit thought they wont work either. The tail end of my origional starter body is what hit the primaries. I wonder if a FordMotorsport starter would be shorter to clear the primaries? The car has been sitting for nearly a year and its time to get it back on the road. Thanks for any help.

_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/8/06 8:29am ]

steharz · May 8, 2006

it might be easier to get the header tube modified to fit around your starter.
i hate having to dent header tubes to make things fit,sort of defeats the purpose of having them on there

71hotrodpinto · May 8, 2006

I did a fairly lengthy search and couldnt find a set of headers for your application.
I would get some mandrel bends from jc whitney of the aproppriate size, a 4inch angle grinder ,and some cutoff discs. Pull the engine trans combo, and start getting brave. First replace the dented tube with a couple of bends that will clear your starter and frame. Hold the pieces together with some hose clamps then after the header is fitting the way you want, take it to a header shop and ask them to weld it up. Be prepared as they'll have to "cut the whole header apart" to make sure they get 360 deg welds.
I cut and rewelded my Mustang II headers to fit my 71 pinto 302. They snake around the steering shaft and also are closer fit to the chassis so they dont drag the ground and look stupid. It took me approximately 6-7weeks of full weekend days to accomplish this but it was hell cheaper than custom headers. ( unless you start counting the hours of my time,wich for me was free).

I talked to a local header expert and he quoted me a price of 1000 to redo what i had in different material and tube size. To do a set from scratch with no pattern and in the car with the engine trans was over 1500.
Id definatly get them ceramic coated so that your custom headers will last, especially after the customization time and money.

Good luck.

BBCFORD · May 8, 2006

I see where your both coming from. The tough this is that right now, spending even a few hundred bucks for custom fabrication is sort of out of the question. I'm tempted to purchase a mini starter from Ford to see if it will fit. I have to just about shoe-horn it into place, since the engine is in the car. As soon as you scuff up the paint or scratch the metal, the starter is considered used and they wont allow you to return it. I just found the dimensions for #14307 Mini Starter – 302/351 --Dimensions: 8.75H x 4.88W x 12.50D. I think I will compare this to the Summit starter and see if it will work.
The thing that just doesnt seem right is that Ford advertises it to be 12.50D which I'm assuming they mean 12.5" in length. I cant see it being over 12" long fron the tip of the cone to the tail end. My OEM starter is only about 9-1/8" long. I really need to determine the actual length. Anyone have one lying around?... part # FMS-M-11000-A50

_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/8/06 1:36pm ]

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/8/06 2:02pm ]

Just Jim · May 8, 2006

I wonder what starter the header people used when designing the headers if the standard starter won't fit?
I had good luck with this mini starter from E Bay. It's the same thing as the Ford -A50 you listed. I'll get some measurements if you need them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-FORD-CLASSIC-EARLY-BRONCO-MINI-STARTER-302-351W_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33576QQitemZ8063046573QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

BBCFORD · May 8, 2006

If you could post the specs I would greatly appreciate it.
_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/8/06 11:53pm ]

Just Jim · May 8, 2006

From the surface of the starter where it contacts the bellhousing it is 6 3/4" total length the longest part being the center 3/4 diameter "nub" which sticks out for the armature shaft. The 3 inch diameter main motor is 6 1/4" long from the mounting flange bellhousing contact point to the head of one of the bolts that holds it together. Look at the E Bay pics for a reference.The AlterStart(E Bay seller) part number is 3205N.

_________________
'58 Morris Minor 289 S/S MM
'62 Falcon 351W "Just Falcon Around"

[ This Message was edited by: Just Jim on 5/9/06 10:42am ]

tonys10sec306 · May 9, 2006

mini starter

BBCFORD · May 9, 2006

Just Jim…I think that it might just work. I measured my OEM starter and found that my length is 7-3/8" based on the same reference points that you used, from the edge where it contacts the bell housing to the “nub” at the end of the armature shaft. My only concern is that the original starter uses a fender mounted solenoid so the solenoid itself wasn’t an issue. My Summit Protorque has the solenoid mounted right to the starter like the one you’re suggesting. With the starter you and I are talking about, you can’t index/rotate it. I wonder if the solenoid will be in the way of one or more primary tubes…not in the length, but index wise.

f100cleveland · May 9, 2006

BBCFord, I have a Ford Motorsports FMS-M-11000-B50 starter, the one that has the more powerful motor. I just measured it and from the point where the starter contacts the bellhousing to the nub on the end of the shaft is 6 5/8". I'm not sure if they are smaller in diameter too, I've heard they are but can't verify it. I bought the CVR pro torque starter for mine and it didn't matter where I indexed it, it wouldn't fit but yet the factory 5.0 gear reduction starter bolted right in. I haven't put the B50 starter in it yet. Hope you get things worked out.

Just Jim · May 9, 2006

On 2006-05-08 17:56, I wonder if the solenoid will be in the way of one or more primary tubes…not in the length, but index wise.

The solenoid of the mini starter doesn't even come close to the 351W swap headers in my Falcon or the shorty headers on my Morris.It should clear yours just fine. I'm still curious what starter the header folks used though.I think FlowTech designed them using a late 5.0 Mustang which came stock with a mini-starter.

_________________
'58 Morris Minor 289 S/S MM
'62 Falcon 351W "Just Falcon Around"

[ This Message was edited by: Just Jim on 5/9/06 10:46am ]

BBCFORD · May 9, 2006

I emailed Holley the same question, which I guess owns FlowTech. I never received any reply to my tech question. I probably should have tried it via the telephone, but it seemed likely I would get someone on the other end saying..."your headers were not designed for an 80 T-Bird". I think that I will try that smaller starter. With it measuring just 3" across, I will already get some clearance as my OEM starter measures 4" across.
I also found this starter which looks like just the same thing except it only has a 1 year warranty instead of 2 years. No big deal plus it's a few bucks cheaper and has the same 3205 part number. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8063649949&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
I believe I'll just pick this unit up along with the retrofit wiring kit and hope for the best. It would make sense that the headers should be based on the smaller Mustang starter, so this should do the trick.

_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/10/06 5:17am ]

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/10/06 5:18am ]

BBCFORD · May 14, 2006

I decide to go with this starter on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8063632985&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT

It should arrive in a couple of days. I'll have to post the results. Hopefully this one will do the trick.

mavman · May 14, 2006

Oh, I've been through this with my '84 Mustang. Same headers. I had to end up removing one of the tubes and re-welding it in a different position to make it work with the CVR starter.

Interestingly enough, the stock old style (big ol' heavy) starter that was originally on my Maverick fit just fine before modifying the tubes. In fact, I ran it for a while before it gave up the ghost.

But, yes, the late model starter will work. I had one on my other mustang before I sold it. It was originally on my '95 F150 5.0....and it quit working. I replaced it, but had the old one rebuilt at a starter shop and bolted it into my old GT (same headers and 302). It was in there...I think 4-5 years and close to 100,000 miles before I traded the car for an SVO.

_________________
"it is better to appear ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"--Mark Twain

[ This Message was edited by: mavman on 5/15/06 12:14am ]

BBCFORD · May 16, 2006

Summit actually sent me the specs on the Ford Motorsport starter yesterday. The guy from tech pulled the starter from the warehouse and measured everything for me. He even provided me with a photo showing where all the measurements were taken. Based on what he said, the design will work. Thanks for the feedback from everyone. I'll now just have to see when the new starter gets here. Too bad I already dinged in one of my primary tubes.

_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/16/06 12:58pm ]

mavman · May 16, 2006

you do know you can pop the ding out...right?

plug one end of the tube so it's air tight. Make a plug for the other end that you can attatch air to. Turn the air on at LOW pressure (like under 10 psi) then heat up the ding until it starts to pop out. Keep the heat steady and eventually it'll come out. I've done this a few times with 2 stroke motorcross pipes....you'd be surprised how easy it is and how much of a difference it makes on those bikes. Just be careful....if you get it too hot (cherry red) it has a tendancy to melt and spray you with 1500 degree metal=not good!

BBCFORD · May 18, 2006

Actually, I didn't realize you could pop out a dinged in primary like that. It would be a lot of work since I would have to cap off the collector, plus all the tubes at the flange. I'll probably just run it like so for now and see what happens. I'll have to see what kind of clearance I now will have with the smaller starter. In fact, the starter arrived yesterday. I was really suprised to see actual ford markings, cast right into the aluminum body. I expected it to have a sticker showing it was made overseas, but it's really nice. I'm going to try it out tomorrow. For the money, I highly recommend buying this one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8063632985&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT
It looks about identical to the one Summit sells for about twice the price.

_________________
1980 T-Bird,
Warmed up 302 CI w/ ported/polished heads
MSD ignition system, C-4 Trans w/shift kit and B&M Megashifter, 8.8 Trac-Lok rear with 5 lug conversion
Dual 2.5" exhaust w/ equal length long tube headers

[ This Message was edited by: BBCFORD on 5/18/06 1:12pm ]

BBCFORD · May 22, 2006

I installed the starter yesterday and it bolted right in. Besides being much smaller, it only weighs about 8 lbs., so putting it in was a breeze. I now have plenty of header clearance. It's still a shame that I had dinged in one of those primaries, but doing so offers just a little extra clearance on the tail end. I'm now in the process of running the new retro-fit wires. Hopefully I'll be starting the car up by the begining of the week.

Help...Need a starter to fit my 302 with Flowtech headers

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