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How to increase a little bit HP on 79 era 302 engine

13K views 107 replies 12 participants last post by  2000f150 
#1 ·
I knew this engine are choked by emission control.
Super low compression etc.
But im looking to get some hp out from them. Just a little bit is good for me.
All stock 133 hp 302 engine with everything stock. Comression side it is perfect at 130 dry on each cylinder.

There are something like edlebrok head+camshaft set for $1900+.Will this kit add some hp to my engine? Im just looking at something like 200hp is enough for me.
Plus what hp can the original C4 transmission handle?
 
#49 ·
I have many, As the Senior MC or OIC I had to make instant decision which cost lives. It still haunts me. Want if? Not easy having to go inform families their love one was killed while under your command. There’s a song which my son use to play by Linkin Park – “Castle of Glass” Go to Youtube and watch the “Official Video” will explain how Our US Military, Law Enforcement, Fire Fighter… have to make decisions which cost Lives. I play it everyday now to remind me What I had to do. Like the Video I Volunteer/Insisted to upper command I will not reveal the mission but I personally not a Assigned Officer and needed to inform the families.
I have always had tears.
 
#51 ·
Getting your T-bird to "move" a little better with your 302.....my vote is change your axle for a 3.25. If you decide to go 351, everything your 302 needs can be done to the 351 and you will have a much better motor for a car that size. Leave the 302 alone, start building a 351 and when you are done just swap it. If your tranny is tired, that will need to be done either way. You do not need a big cam to get the HP increase you want, and you really should focus on the most torque you can make. Change your gear, and then see if you really want to go through the rest of it. That is my 2 cents.
 
#52 ·
alright. I really dont understand why you guys are arguing...
I guess the laber in my area is really high, I can do every job on the engine but the only i can't is separate from transmission and lift it out of the car. (For real, sometime i want a engine lift and a shop car lift in my garage).
So, The price they quote for remove and put the engine back in is 1400$, and that is the lowest.(Metro of NYC) If you know someplace better I would really want to hear about, I knew a reman 351w short block is roughly around 1000,and even a long block is around 1600. But the cost of remove and install is so high, i really need to stay with this 302 for now. And after i move to VA later this year and find a shop over there.
So i already installed these two heads on the 302. will see after i assembled back together.
So if i didnt change cam, i dont need to change push rod right?
 
#54 ·
Yes, that real.
Header is new, chrome pipe style header, should be enough for this little set up.
And I think i read somewhere, a 302 engine when at 5000rpm, should only need around 500cfm. And I read the MC2150 is rated for 450 rpm. Since my rear end is pretty for highway, and I mainly need it on the highway, I really dont want to cruise at 3500rpm.. I still plan to go for a Holley or edelbroke 550cfm in the coming month, but for now i will still using the 2150 since its pretty reliable.
 
#62 ·
My plan would be change rear 3.23 if it's a direct junkyard swap
Service c4 adj bands
Hot cold engine oil pressure tests
Comps good
Performer manifold if bonnet clearance is concern and 500 avs is good choice
Cheap shortys and run it
not so sure on the engine oil pressure test.
What procedure is that,
The readin on my stock gauge is pretty rough.. A wide range are marked as normal, and I normally got my needle in the center of the normal range......
 
#61 ·
Spend a whole day trying to learn how to adjust the rocker.
Damn I do it wrong the first time, i thought the new stud suppose to hold the roller like the oem one. Guess Im wrong.. I read somewhere I should torque it to 20 and i did, and the result is I barely able to rotate the engine by hand....
Search somewhere I need to twist the rod while tighten each nut and do it one by one and again and again with engine turns each time. Ordered new push rod, i though one of the push rod bended back when I take that heavy cast head off.

So I did a quick crapy Dry compression test, and the result is pretty impressive. I got a reading of 155psi.. Way higher than what I have before. ( I read somewhere to convert measured psi to engine compression ratio is divded by 14.9, so my compression ratio is a little above 10 then.)

AVS2 500cfm carb will come in tomorrow i will see if the clearance is enough. I think it should be enough.

What i have now should be also good if I upgrade to 351w in the future i think. Hope i will soon got a engine hoist..
 
#65 ·
Spend a whole day trying to learn how to adjust the rocker.
Damn I do it wrong the first time, i thought the new stud suppose to hold the roller like the oem one. Guess Im wrong.. I read somewhere I should torque it to 20 and i did, and the result is I barely able to rotate the engine by hand....
Search somewhere I need to twist the rod while tighten each nut and do it one by one and again and again with engine turns each time. Ordered new push rod, i though one of the push rod bended back when I take that heavy cast head off.

So I did a quick crapy Dry compression test, and the result is pretty impressive. I got a reading of 155psi.. Way higher than what I have before. ( I read somewhere to convert measured psi to engine compression ratio is divded by 14.9, so my compression ratio is a little above 10 then.)

AVS2 500cfm carb will come in tomorrow i will see if the clearance is enough. I think it should be enough.

What i have now should be also good if I upgrade to 351w in the future i think. Hope i will soon got a engine hoist..

Stud or bolt rockers
[St/QUOTE]
My question is, how old is the engines guts? If still 79 stuff, you're looking for serious problems. Old timing chain, bearings loose, (cam, rod, main) valve seals history, guides, just to name a few issues. You start putting more in one end and the other will fail.
Rearend is not a matter of just throwing some junkyard gears in it. Install a posi unit, and replace all the bearings, carrier and axle along with the seals. New ARP wheel studs. Remember everything is over 40 years old and was factory made for light duty.
A cold/hot oil pressure test will tell you if the pump relief works. And I can move those readings all over depending on oil weight.
79 302/C-4 is a pretty weak engine/trans to start putting a stress on it. Especially a 41 year old system.
Is this a daily driver you need every day?
Ok I get it but imported a 66 Ranchero 390fe c6 9 inch from USA to Australia looked a toughie
Did a oil pressure test good at hot idle and through rev range ,compressons good 1 a little low but new it was a valve ,trans shifted good so got a service diff was quiet 1 axel seal bad so did kit and changed oil
Did rust and paint
That was 8 years ago and is daily driver you don't have to go mad
 
#64 ·
My question is, how old is the engines guts? If still 79 stuff, you're looking for serious problems. Old timing chain, bearings loose, (cam, rod, main) valve seals history, guides, just to name a few issues. You start putting more in one end and the other will fail.
Rearend is not a matter of just throwing some junkyard gears in it. Install a posi unit, and replace all the bearings, carrier and axle along with the seals. New ARP wheel studs. Remember everything is over 40 years old and was factory made for light duty.
A cold/hot oil pressure test will tell you if the pump relief works. And I can move those readings all over depending on oil weight.
79 302/C-4 is a pretty weak engine/trans to start putting a stress on it. Especially a 41 year old system.
Is this a daily driver you need every day?
 
#67 · (Edited)
I appoligized rickyrace1983 is correct this not the Forum.

I am not sure of your exact location but I have used Websites like craigslist, offer up and letgo but you do have to be careful there are scammers and individuals Looking to even target people by Fraud with fate money. Try to meet at a populated parking lot or at their home with a friend never inside the home only garage and make sure to tell someone their name and where you are going to met

I have personally used all three in the past before this outbreak and been very happy. But warn it is a "As Is" condition. You need to ask questions including inspect what you are buying. I have always give a "Best Offer" as I know what the item is worth but you will need to do some investigation before your trip. Some even will tell you I have someone else ..... One thing I learn. One comes and one goes maybe it was destiny. Example: My son wanted a 1997 Type-R when he found a 2001 Type-R the vehicle was in peices and missing part, Plus ££, £££. The 01 Type-R sold but we found a 97 Type-R complete for under 10K GBP, $6K He drove it home that day.

craigslist > sites
Go to your State and choose city`
I went to “New Youk” click on “new York city”

craigslist: new york city jobs, apartments, for sale, services, community, and events
Go to “services”
Click on “automotive”

automotive Parts:
In the mid of page:
Go to “for sale”
Click on “auto parts”

Here is what I found by performing a search for “351”

Ford 351 w engines

351w motor - $800 (old bridge)

351 Windsor blocks (Middletown)

1978 FORD C-6 auto 3 speed. Trans - $335 (BERGEN)

1973 Ford 351 Cleveland engine - $300 (Flanders)


Concerning the Valve Adjustment it really depends on the situation of parts which may be new or rebuilt.

As Example: If your heads were sent to a Machine Shop for rebuilt the Normal Operating Procedure they will perform is a Head Resurface.
1. The exact amount will depend is depended on variety of reasons.
2. The amount removed may or may not change the geometry of the distance between the lifters and rocker arms.
3. The head gasket thickness may also create changes.
4. Rock Arm modification
Type/Size/Length of Stud
Tread angle
Milling of Rocker pedestal
Guide plates


Rocker Arm Ratios - FordMuscle
Flat vs. Roller Tappet: Which Is Better?

Remember you just purchase new Aluminum Heads all will not be built to the same specification as the original 79 302ci 5L engine. Camshaft, Lifter and Rockers will also define the push rod length changing to a 351W/C will also increase that length. Alignment is also an issue I personally have used the adjustable Guide plates.


I notice your searches and questioning here and other postings the answers are not the one that may relate to your built. No disrespect to the posting but you must use common sense, analyze what is being written and learn from making mistakes. I mean "using washers", "hammering in the Studs" I can see if it is an emergency but on a daily driver.

I don’t ready discuss on Forums but for some reason I notice this post, there will always be arguments and sometimes you will find a connection.

I believed there are some really good advice's in this post and you should keep your mind open. Last week you wanted to wait a month for a 4bbl and plan keep using 2150, 4bbl to 2bbl adapter. But I just read you are waiting to receive it? You read and comment about Carb issues earlier. You read about and commented Water Temp yet you open a posting, You read about Valve adjustment and then asking about adjustment.

The internet is a wonderful place and I wish it was available when I was young learn as much as you can.
This path you are about to take is depended on you the cost will be more than you expect to pay. As I started my posting "With my own experience I’ve spent money every payday on my vehicle which now I think back “That was a waste of money and time wish I wouldn’t of done that”.

Something’s make sense other don’t.


One last thing I notice you mention your Ethnicity in one of your posting, Do not discuss Race, Ethnicity, Religion or Politics. I was born in a British Colonies but I am an American.

Everyone stay safe.
 
#68 ·
So,
I complete the job
Didn't align the intake gasket right the first time and make a huge vacuum leak the first time starts it, and leak some coolant into engine oil when take the manifold off. But the engine change been made and i think problem there are solved. So I just drive it for 800miles today. It starts, runs, drives much better than before. However I have a measure of 180psi for some cylinder and 2 cylinder are on 170.. If my calculation is right, isn't 170psi in compression means over 10:1 compression ratio?

The edelbrock carb really give me a feeling of modern car drive on foot, it response to throttle much faster than the motorcraft.

But I had experiance huge noise when cruise.. Kinda sounds like a diesel engine. Like clicking sound when at idle, and just getting bigger when rpm goes up. Sometimes i heard them from modern Honda, when u outside the car. But definitely im hearing far more noise than before. Could that be because of the increase of compression? Or different intake manifold(Cast vs Aluminum?)

I recheck all the compression when back at home and nothing change, but the lower compression cylinder go up to 190psi which scares me... I install a new oil gauge, which measure at about 50psi on the high way, i use 5w-30 non-synthtic oil as well.(I hope i use the correct oil btw, and I use the Restorer oil addtive, which I watched the project farm video on youtube)
 
#69 ·
And I also experiancing issue when fitting the header on the driver side.... The engine is too close to the gear box, I need to find a block hugger type header to fit it.
All the block hugger type header are oval port, buy mine is rectangler, still fit?
 
#70 ·
UM,
Really how to tell the compresion ratio i have?
Can I tell it by doing a compression test?
Since i have 180psi crank cold and dry... Divide that by 15? i have what 12:1, I knew that is not right....
I think the original head i have is the 78cc-74cc head with the smog stuff,. And according to www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1979/860630/ford_thunderbird_heritage_5_0l_v-8_automatic.html
The original compression ratio should be 8.4:1. That would be fine with 87 octane fuel. But after the new head I am still using the old fuel. So could that be the engine konck because of low octane....
Just by 62/(617.75+62) im getting 9.1:1 compression which I need to use higher octane fuel...
And im not sure why my compression test result is so damn high..
 
#71 ·
What is your timing set at? If it is knocking, you need to retard your timing until it goes away.. You have to be careful about accelerating with a heavy car and highway gears when the compression goes up. Heat, lean fuel mixtures, heavy loads, incorrect timing, as well as other factors combine to create conditions for knocking, or detonation. Do you know how thick your head gaskets are? As far as guessing your compression ratio based on compression test #s is hard to do as things like how fast your starter is turning will affect it. If it is knocking at cruise, your vacuum advance needs to be lessened. disconnect it until you figure out how to adjust it. When you raise compression, your engine needs LESS timing advance. Your distributor affects advance 3 ways. Where you set it, centrifugal advance, and vacuum advance. You will need to research this stuff, and how to check and adjust it. Until you get it all sorted out, retard, and disconnect the vacuum advance to stop the knocking or you will ruin your engine. I think you can get it all set up right but it will take some more time and learning......but it sounds like you are not afraid to learn, lol. Tuning and adjusting become more critical as your engine moves away from stock, and you might need to run higher octane gas.

1. set your timing with the vac advance disconnected. Set it to 10* for a starting point.

2. At idle, your vacuum advance, depending on where the hose is connected, will have either advance 0* or it will max out. Hook it to the max out spot and read your timing with your light....If it says, for example, 30*, you will know your vac advance is adding 20* because 10* and 20* equal 30. Your advance may be adjustable with an allen wrench put through the nipple your hose hooks up to. I dont remember which way to turn it to lessen it. I also dont know if your vacuum advance will have this type of adjustment, but it may. Adjust it to the least amount possible. When you hook it up, connect it to the port with 0 vacuum at idle....but dont hook it up yet.

3. Rev your engine up while measuring your timing with the light. Do not stand or put your face in line with your fan blades as they can come apart.....very rare, but it happens. measure your timing from idle up to the point it stops increasing as you rev it. You are looking for how much centrifugal advance your distributor has. Write it down. It is also adjustable, but requires taking your distributor apart and I am not getting into that now.

If you add all these numbers up, you will know how much advance your engine is getting as you cruise down the highway, and from the sound of it, you need to lessen that number.
 
#72 ·
What is your timing set at? If it is knocking, you need to retard your timing until it goes away.. You have to be careful about accelerating with a heavy car and highway gears when the compression goes up. Heat, lean fuel mixtures, heavy loads, incorrect timing, as well as other factors combine to create conditions for knocking, or detonation. Do you know how thick your head gaskets are? As far as guessing your compression ratio based on compression test #s is hard to do as things like how fast your starter is turning will affect it. If it is knocking at cruise, your vacuum advance needs to be lessened. disconnect it until you figure out how to adjust it. When you raise compression, your engine needs LESS timing advance. Your distributor affects advance 3 ways. Where you set it, centrifugal advance, and vacuum advance. You will need to research this stuff, and how to check and adjust it. Until you get it all sorted out, retard, and disconnect the vacuum advance to stop the knocking or you will ruin your engine. I think you can get it all set up right but it will take some more time and learning......but it sounds like you are not afraid to learn, lol. Tuning and adjusting become more critical as your engine moves away from stock, and you might need to run higher octane gas.

1. set your timing with the vac advance disconnected. Set it to 10* for a starting point.

2. At idle, your vacuum advance, depending on where the hose is connected, will have either advance 0* or it will max out. Hook it to the max out spot and read your timing with your light....If it says, for example, 30*, you will know your vac advance is adding 20* because 10* and 20* equal 30. Your advance may be adjustable with an allen wrench put through the nipple your hose hooks up to. I dont remember which way to turn it to lessen it. I also dont know if your vacuum advance will have this type of adjustment, but it may. Adjust it to the least amount possible. When you hook it up, connect it to the port with 0 vacuum at idle....but dont hook it up yet.

3. Rev your engine up while measuring your timing with the light. Do not stand or put your face in line with your fan blades as they can come apart.....very rare, but it happens. measure your timing from idle up to the point it stops increasing as you rev it. You are looking for how much centrifugal advance your distributor has. Write it down. It is also adjustable, but requires taking your distributor apart and I am not getting into that now.

If you add all these numbers up, you will know how much advance your engine is getting as you cruise down the highway, and from the sound of it, you need to lessen that number.
U are right.
My distributor have two port, one for retard (connect to manifold vac), and one for advance(connect to carb vac). I disconnected the advance port to the car this morning, and the knocking sound half away. But still there at some time point. I will get a timing light but really not so sure i can read the timing degree as the mark i can barely see.

There are a full tank of 87, i can't just dump them... can I use octane booster?
 
#74 ·
You really need a timing light, and if you cant read the marks, you may need to get a white paint pen, or something, and mark your pointer and the degree lines on your balancer. Turn your distributor counter clock-wise in small increments until that sound goes away. Your idle speed will go down if you are retarding. You want as much advance as your engine needs, but the knock is telling you there is too much. There is much more to your tune than "just retard until the noise stops," but until you get a timing light, and even a vacuum gauge for bonus points, you better just make it stop.
 
#83 ·
i do have a vacuum gauge tho.
So tunning with the vacuum gauge, i read somewher.
1. try turn clockwise to advance it, until the max vacuum number reached. (For this step, normal engine should be 15-20, but i can get it all the way to 25 by advance it, so I need to just stop at 20?)
2. after advance the dizz, try to retard it by 1-2 on the vacuum gauge. (my dizz have both vacuum retard and advance, do i plug the retard or just leave it unhook?)
 
#75 ·
Dont worry about octane yet. It may be possible to have a good tune even with 87. I run 87 with iron heads and 9.9:1. There are a ton of factors. The weight of your car and high gears will be a challenge. You have to start tuning it.
 
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