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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been seriously considering purchasing a new mustang gt lately, but they just seem underpowered to me. (I don't have enough cash for a shelby) Would I be better off to just build a badass turbocharged smallblock for my 88 thunderbird?
Could I make a real sleeper out of my thunderbird for less money than a new mustang?
Is it possible to make 9 second power and get around 20mpg on the highway? Would have to run on premium pump gas. Would this thing be reliable enough that I could daily drive it?

What kinds of builds come to mind?
I've got a bunch of money burning a hole in my pocket.
 

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Its going to take money! I think you can do it though.

If I was trying to get those numbers in a street driven Tbird, I would use a dart 4.125" block. forged steel 3.85" or 4" crank. Forged H beam rods, good pistons. AFR 205's (at least, maybe bigger) Keep static compression less than 9.0:1. Injection would probably have to be a stand alone DFI system like a FAST system, Haltech, Motech, etc. Big injectors - 60+ lb/hr. 90mm throttle body. TFS-R intake for a 351w might work, or youre better off with a Victor spyder EFI intake. You dont have to go huge with the cam, you would need something with 112*+ overlap, but to try to keep MPG dont go huuuge on the duration and lift.
Biggest primary 351w fox body headers you can find.

The turbo(s) would have to be able to move some air. You would need 12+ psi boost. Not an expert in turbo/models or sizing. Mavman probably knows. Big intercooler and maybe H20 injection for safety's sake.

T56 for the tranny. 3.25-3.55 rear gears with a Locker. You are going to need some major traction, slicks on the track are a must. Maybe have to use minitubs to get enough rubber.

Those basics might get you into the 9's. In any case, you also need to worry about saftey in a car that makes close to 1000hp. You would need one helluva cage to run at the track, harnesses, etc. Also, I know they exist, but I would never think that a 9 second car would be extremely reliable. 20 mpg might be really tough to attain.

It would be a very abitious project, if youre prepared for it, go for it. Otherwise get a new Gt Mustang and put a supercharger on it. It wont run 9's but it would be alot of fun.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChicoB on 7/15/06 9:25am ]</font>
 

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It's definetly going to take a LOT of CAREFUL planning to meet those goals. Not necessarily a lot of money (relatively speaking), but you can do it. I did it, though I didn't make nearly as much power as I 'could' have (junk 302 block cracked).

You would probably want to look into an adjustable wastegate controller of some sort, that way you could keep the boost down to a 'sane' level on the street but turn it (and the fuel) up at the track. There are guys making 1300+ HP with similar builds..so it can be done. Making such an engine live on the street will be a real challenge. IMO, ANY blown/turbo'd combination will not be nearly as reliable on a street car as a naturally aspirated engine would.

If I were doing such a build, I'd plan like this: Home build blow-through 750 carb, 460" BBF with a TV8101 or TV8102 turbo, GOOD intercooler, and an auto transmission. As much fun as a 5 speed would be to drive, an auto will usually be easier to drive...especially with a turbo. It's hard to launch with boost with a 5 speed unless you have some sort of spooling apparatus...e.g. nitrous on a window switch + retarded timing + overly rich mixture (efi). That will usually spool a lazy turbo pretty easily. I had an SVO that I could spool at 1500 with a Holset HE351CW turbo (that normally wouldn't spool until around 3800) with retarded timing and nitrous. I am watching a post on another board where a fellow did a shake down run with his hot rod (460" Ford with a big honkin diesel turbo, good IC, and a carburetor)...and on a SHAKE DOWN, it went 153 mph in the 1/4....that's serious horsepower and a testament to what a little boost can do on a big block. You can easily make enough power to break a chassis.

Back to what I HAVE done. I ran a '74 Maverick, 302 low compression, RPM intake and a Powerstroke turbocharger (early powerstroke...model TP38...1.15 A/R hot 1.10 cold). No intercooler, just good hot air. It was capable of 22+ psi, but efficiently it was good to about 14-18. It made enough to split not one, not two but three 302 blocks, right in the mains. One even put a hole through the 6 and 7 cylinder walls...both of them. Serious cylinder pressure, and it was my fault for jury-rigging it together. What kind of power? I've never had one of my own engines on a dyno, can't afford that stuff. It was enough to light up the 265/50-15's at ANY speed and in ANY gear (C4 w/ 2800 stall TCI) on the freeway. 70 mph rolling burnouts were an absolute breeze at 16 psi. I ran it at the track one time....left at 5 psi went about 300 feet and it went ka-pop..burned a couple plugs off due to a bad fuel pump, but still went 1.55 in the 60' and 4.17 in the 330. It was on a good pass. I'd say a fairly easy 6.50-6.60 1/8 mile. It also managed 24 mpg. Stock camshaft at first (out of a '85 Mustang GT engine...Hyd roller) but I later changed to an Erson turbo grind which made the best MPG of the two. The GT cam was ~15-17 mpg, IIRC. Best thing about turbos...you have to keep your foot off the throttle to get any sort of mileage. Once you hear the whistle of boost, your gas gauge will drop pretty quick. My SVO was the same way. 33 mpg normally driving (no boost, low RPM) and maybe 10 if I drove it hard. That was IF it ran (half the time I spent fixing the dang thing!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
On 2006-07-14 18:57, mavman wrote:
It's definetly going to take a LOT of CAREFUL planning to meet those goals.

Back to what I HAVE done. I ran a '74 Maverick, 302 low compression, RPM intake and a Powerstroke turbocharger (early powerstroke...model TP38...1.15 A/R hot 1.10 cold). No intercooler, just good hot air. It was capable of 22+ psi, but efficiently it was good to about 14-18. It made enough to split not one, not two but three 302 blocks, right in the mains. One even put a hole through the 6 and 7 cylinder walls...both of them. Serious cylinder pressure, and it was my fault for jury-rigging it together. What kind of power? I've never had one of my own engines on a dyno, can't afford that stuff. It was enough to light up the 265/50-15's at ANY speed and in ANY gear (C4 w/ 2800 stall TCI) on the freeway. 70 mph rolling burnouts were an absolute breeze at 16 psi. I ran it at the track one time....left at 5 psi went about 300 feet and it went ka-pop..burned a couple plugs off due to a bad fuel pump, but still went 1.55 in the 60' and 4.17 in the 330. It was on a good pass. I'd say a fairly easy 6.50-6.60 1/8 mile. It also managed 24 mpg. Stock camshaft at first (out of a '85 Mustang GT engine...Hyd roller) but I later changed to an Erson turbo grind which made the best MPG of the two. The GT cam was ~15-17 mpg, IIRC. Best thing about turbos...you have to keep your foot off the throttle to get any sort of mileage. Once you hear the whistle of boost, your gas gauge will drop pretty quick. My SVO was the same way. 33 mpg normally driving (no boost, low RPM) and maybe 10 if I drove it hard. That was IF it ran (half the time I spent fixing the dang thing!)
Damn dude! That homegrown build sounds like it was way up there on the coolness scale. It also sounds like you were able to knock down some pretty decent milage with a carb. I've never been able to get decent milage in anything. I must have a heavy foot or something.
I was sort of thinking something along the lines of what these guys offer. http://www.turbotechnologyinc.com/turbocharger_systems.htm
 

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remember the key to MPG's is keeping the revs down. With a turbo I think you can do it because you dont have to keep the car under boost when you dont want to. With a six speed that has a .50 overdrive you can still use an agressive rearend while keeping milage up. The easiest way to do it would be to build a 10 second turbo car with a bullet proof bottom end and use some nitrous on top of the turbo to get to the 9 second goal.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ujt389 on 7/16/06 6:11am ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Actually 10's would be just fine. I just want to be able to drive it anywhere. I think a turbocharged engine would be the hot ticket for milage and performance.
 

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Shouldn't be much of a problem, especially the 20 mpg provided that you keep the rpms down on the highway. In the recent Car Craft, a guy got 25 mpg out of his 80's Trans Am while pulling off a 12.88 1/4 mile on a mild, N/A car.
However, the new Mustang GT does have potential. If you don't have the money for a GT500, then simply build your own. All you need is a 5.4L engine (preferably one w/ 3V heads to make things cheaper). Once you have that, all your accesories from the 4.6 can be bolted to the 5.4 and then all you need is a blower. The only thing you need custom is the mid-pipe in which any exhaust shop can widen to accomadate the 5.4. Also, a stronger drivetrain will be needed. All in total, it should cost less than the GT500 depending how crazy you go. With 2V heads, stock cam, and ported heads, you can get 290 rwhp and 360 rwlbs*ft of torque.
 

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On 2006-07-15 21:30, bassman97 wrote:
Shouldn't be much of a problem, especially the 20 mpg provided that you keep the rpms down on the highway. In the recent Car Craft, a guy got 25 mpg out of his 80's Trans Am while pulling off a 12.88 1/4 mile on a mild, N/A car.
However, the new Mustang GT does have potential. If you don't have the money for a GT500, then simply build your own.
I'd be thinking there is a huge difference between 12.8/25mpg and 9's (or 10's)/20mpg....even a GT500 is pushing things and its blown.....running 9's and 20mpg especially N/A would be real hard, you are probably going to need 700hp+ to get you there in a "street" ride.
Turbo is probably the best option but running boost and fuel economy don't seem to go together real well either, as the a/f ratio needs to be fairly rich for "safe" operation....meaning, forget about 14.7 : 1 a/f ratio's under boost.
However on the plus side, you could run a boost controller in conjunction with engine management system. Atleast with daily running, you could screw the boost down which would help you with your economy goal.
You would also need to give serious consideration as to what fuel you intend to run in such a setup. Pump gas just mightn't cut the mustard.....E85 may be just the ticket ....if its available in your area. It would handle the turbo option much better and let you run alittle more timing as well as eliminate the need for meth injection kits and such.
Hey..the more I think about this, the better it sounds. I seriously doubt if N/A could get anywhere near your goals but a turbo.....just might.
 

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I agree, my point was just simply that my fairly stock 03 Mustang GT gets 27 mpg tops while that Trans-Am gets 25 mpg with a larger engine and can run 1 second quicker in the 1/4. I wasn't suggesting N/A because to get a N/A car to do that, you need a lot of fine tuning. However, building your own GT500 w/ 3V heads should get you down to 11's with a good cam and a good head porting job while maintaining good mileage.
 
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