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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got a 72 cleveland that came with the car I just bought. It sat for probably around 10 years. Had it started for a few times here and there and then it started missing. Found out the cam had some flat lobes and it completely wrecked the lifters on the lobes it took out. I think there were 3 lobes. Stock bottom end with stock 4 barrel heads. Stock rockers, springs, everything. Put a new cam in. Comp 280h. cam with .530 lift. Probably got 15 miles on it and it took two different lobes out on the cam again.
Why?? And yes, I had plenty of lube and broke it in for 15 minutes at 2500rpm. What should I try now??? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks much!!
 

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Well, you should try to break in the cam at 2,000 to 2,200 RPM, for 20 to 30 minutes. Then change your oil, and run it like ya stold it...

Get New lifters, get new cam, clean out lifter bores with a green scotchbrite pad and Carb cleaner. Don't use steel wool because it will leave steel debris in the oil holes....

FE
 

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Maybe the rockers were not properly adjusted.....too tight?
 

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Could be, I would just sent your cam to a place like camresearch, they have a machine that will break in the cam for you and it only cost I believe $60-70

As for the reason why your wiping lobes, I can't help you there, it does seem strange with the stock spings.
 

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Need atleast a min. of 20 mins. break in time for flat tappit.
Use the lube and use a diesel oil to break it in or Rottella oil. They have the zinc at still high levels.
I ran the 3 I broke in for 30 mins. varied the rpms from 2500-3000.
The cam needs lots of oil splash on it at break in time, so you might consider a lower visc. for break in.
 

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On 2006-05-01 01:50, Forthman wrote:
Need atleast a min. of 20 mins. break in time for flat tappit.
Use the lube and use a diesel oil to break it in or Rottella oil. They have the zinc at still high levels.
I ran the 3 I broke in for 30 mins. varied the rpms from 2500-3000.
The cam needs lots of oil splash on it at break in time, so you might consider a lower visc. for break in.
Zinc acts a lubricant when there is metal to metal contact--which you certainly have during cam break-in. Unfortunately, most zinc has been fazed out of motor oils. As mentioned above, oil rated for diesel applications have higher levels of zinc. Rotella also has a higher content.

To increase the zinc content, I add a bottle of E.O.S. which I pick up at my local GM dealership. About $9 for a little more piece of mind. I also add a second bottle after the first oil change.

Lifters need to be able to spin freely in their bores at all times. This needs to be checked as sometimes the bores (or the lifters) are sized wrong for each other. A tight lifter bore can be honed with a brake hone, but you don't want to overdo it and make the lifters very loose.

Are you sure you are using stock springs? Too heavy of springs during break-in can be a problem, as is too tight of a valve adjustment.

Off the subject of break-ins---if you are running a stock spring, you may need an upgrade with that cam to take advantage of it at higher RPM's.

_________________
Dennis

65' Stang

393 stroker, Toploader 4 spd, 3:50 rear.

Victor Jr. knockoff heads, 282S cam, Stealth intake, Bigs Stage 5 750DP, Accufab headers, Scattershield, Caltracs.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dennis111 on 5/1/06 7:29pm ]</font>
 

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Use GM EOS Additive and Watch what oil you use.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
They are stock springs. They are pedastal mount. No adjusting. Just tighten down. I doubt another 5 min would make any difference. I 'll have to try the oil. Thanks guys.
 

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I will bet that you are very close to, if not past, the stamped rockers lift limit.

If the rockers bind at max lift that will wipe out your cam quick. Remember that the lifters will compress without the engine running, so rocker arm bind is tough to see without a solid lifter to use for checking purposes.

Also, that cam will be a turd without upgrading the springs. Why do only 1/2 the job?

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Don't have the money to spend to do the "right" job. Who says that is the right thing anyway. Before I built this new 408 windsor in the mach, (been saving for a long time), I just did "half" the job. My old windsor ran great. Cheap also. Stock heads with the stock springs. Stock pistons, junk 750, junk headers, Ran an Ultradyne solid with .555, .565 lift. EVERYBODY said it wouldn't run. Ran 12.50's and did it for 12 years. I could spin it to 7000 without a hint of valve float. (Even had the springs checked - they had anywhere from 30 to 75 lbs at the seat) Finally switched to some different springs and it didnt' help a lick. Then switched to the stroker. Bought the tubbed car and it was prettty much just a roller. Spent my money for the year (and time) on just getting it on the road. Just want to get the thing running and drivable for now. Although I didn't think about the rockers. I'll have to give that a look.
By the way, which cam should I try next? Don't want to have to buy new springs, etc. Don't care if it is real fast but I want a good lope at idle. (and just run)
_________________
1970 Mach 1
mild 408 [email protected]
519 fwhp, 532 ft.lbs torque
70 Tubbed, narrowed fastback
351C no #'s YET!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jasonn on 5/2/06 3:06am ]</font>
 

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Lifter clearance is pretty critical. Even a couple of thousands of too much clearance can result in a binding lifter that won't rotate like it should. Honing lifter bores should be done lightly. Remove the oil galley plugs and be sure there isn't some obstruction in the galleys somewhere that feed the lifter. I hope you get this resolved...two cams wiped would be driving me nuts!
 

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Did it take out the same lobes the second time around?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 63SportsCoupe on 5/2/06 7:15am ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: 63SportsCoupe on 5/2/06 7:19am ]</font>
 

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On 2006-05-01 12:01, jasonn wrote:
Don't have the money to spend to do the "right" job. Who says that is the right thing anyway. Before I built this new 408 windsor in the mach, (been saving for a long time), I just did "half" the job. My old windsor ran great. Cheap also. Stock heads with the stock springs. Stock pistons, junk 750, junk headers, Ran an Ultradyne solid with .555, .565 lift. EVERYBODY said it wouldn't run. Ran 12.50's and did it for 12 years. I could spin it to 7000 without a hint of valve float. (Even had the springs checked - they had anywhere from 30 to 75 lbs at the seat) Finally switched to some different springs and it didnt' help a lick. Then switched to the stroker. Bought the tubbed car and it was prettty much just a roller. Spent my money for the year (and time) on just getting it on the road. Just want to get the thing running and drivable for now. Although I didn't think about the rockers. I'll have to give that a look.
By the way, which cam should I try next? Don't want to have to buy new springs, etc. Don't care if it is real fast but I want a good lope at idle. (and just run)
_________________
1970 Mach 1
mild 408 [email protected]
519 fwhp, 532 ft.lbs torque
70 Tubbed, narrowed fastback
351C no #'s YET!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jasonn on 5/2/06 3:06am ]</font>
Sounds like you have goten buy on cobled up junk in the past
butt it looks like your luck has ended. You are now going to pay as mutch as if you would have done it "right" in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sounds like you have goten buy on cobled up junk in the past
butt it looks like your luck has ended. You are now going to pay as mutch as if you would have done it "right" in the first place.

[/quote]

Junk huh? By the looks of your car, you have alot of money into it and it's only running low 12's?? Just goes to show you that throwing money at a problem is NOT going to solve anything!

Greg p - More spring pressure is not going to help. Actually probably hurt it even more. AGAIN. Throwing money at it aint going to help. That is not the "right" way. I WILLl have to check the rocker slot clearance. That is a good idea. A buddy of mine gave me a set of harland sharp rockers for a 429 (same as cleveland) that he was not going to use. Maybe for another $80, I'll try the crane conversions kit to eliminate any kind of rockers troubles.

Blkford - Thanks, I'll start checking the bore clearances. I had the springs checked for coil bind before I put the new cam in. So I can eliminate that.

63sportscoupe - Different lobes this time. So I don't THINK the oiling in the motor has anything to do with it.

I read the hot rod arcticle. Very good ideas. Sounds exactly like what I'm going through. Looks like that GM eos additive or the diesel oil with the cl-4 rating is something to try. Also seen Crower has a "lobe saver" lifter set. They have a flat on the side which is doing the same thing as grooving the lifter bore.

Thanks guys, I'll try all of these things and hope she works. Bout all I can do right now.

_________________
1970 Mach 1
mild 408 [email protected]
519 fwhp, 532 ft.lbs torque
70 Tubbed, narrowed fastback
351C no #'s YET!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jasonn on 5/2/06 9:47pm ]</font>
 

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Greg p - More spring pressure is not going to help. Actually probably hurt it even more. AGAIN. Throwing money at it aint going to help. That is not the "right" way. I WILLl have to check the rocker slot clearance. That is a good idea. A buddy of mine gave me a set of harland sharp rockers for a 429 (same as cleveland) that he was not going to use. Maybe for another $80, I'll try the crane conversions kit to eliminate any kind of rockers troubles.


I wasn't saying more spring pressure will help breakin. No coilbind will help breakin, though! When checking a hydraulic cam for coilbind or rocker slot interference, you must use a solid lifter. Otherwise the hyd lifter collapses due to no oil pressure and you get false readings.

The correct springs will likely be the Comp 924 doal spring with damper. When breaking the cam in, you remove the inner spring, and use only the outer spring. This spring is probably, by itself, weaker than the stock spring, so YES, it can help breakin IF you remove the inner springs.

The conversion kit is a bandaid on a bleeding wound. It is so cheap to have rocker studs installed it isn't even funny! You can even do it yourself with the proper tool, but in the end it is best to have the machine shop do it. Then you have a REAL 7/16" stud that won't snap off.

Look, I am no Cleveland expert. But I have built and run more than a few of them over the last darn near 20 years, and the first few I built were cheapos like yours. The problems that I encountered trying to cheap out ended up costing me, over the course of two different valvetrain related failures, two blocks, two heads, two sets of pistons, and all kinds of $$$.

Not to mention the flat cams during breakin.

Once I converted to screwin studs and roller tip rockers, and used the correct springs and valves, I never had another failure.

Just trying to get the point across that half-assing your engine doesn't necessarily save you money, or result in slightly diminished performance. It often costs big $$$ and then your stuff blows up!

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I already said, I checked coil bind. NONE. This is basically a stock motor!! Headers, and a very mild hyd cam! Get it through your head that I am not going to spend a ton of money on machining the head, studs, guideplates, valves, springs, retainers, keepers, etc. If you want to that's fine! I built my 408 this way (putting the good stuff in) and it runs great! When you are building a race motor then I agree! I too have built many motors over the last 20 years and have never had any trouble - either your "right" way or the cheap way. Just because I am not going to buy all this stuff on this motor does not - by anyway - mean that it is half assed. These motors lasted for MANY years like this right from the factory. That is pretty much what this motor is. Just a daily driver. I just want it to run, not going to even race it! 95% of people out there with their daily drivers are running stock everything with maybe headers, 4 brl, and a mild cam - JUST LIKE THIS ONE - So your going to tell all these people they have junk, half assed motors? I bet you'll have a few replies on that one.
 

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Nice.

Use stock rockers and springs and valves on a Comp 280H cam.

Yes, that is half assed.

And yes, I expect plenty of replies..... AGREEING WITH ME!

That comp 280H is a stout hydraulic cam. Compare it with the stock '72 2V cam and you'll see what I mean.

You know so much about building motors, but the Rotella and EOS advice was new to you? Whatever, man.

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Do you actually know ANYTHING about a cleveland?? Who actually BUILT your motor. Someone else no doubt, since that is all you want to do is throw money at everything, but whatever, your money.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

Go here and tell them that this cam is huge!

Whoever said I have never heard of using the rotella and eos?? Sheeesh you like putting words in peoples mouth's.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread! I have some ideas I'm going to try. Thanks much for the guys that actually just tried to help and give me some ideas on what the problem might actually be instead of bandaiding it with money!!
 

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On 2006-05-02 10:31, jasonn wrote:
Do you actually know ANYTHING about a cleveland?? Who actually BUILT your motor. Someone else no doubt, since that is all you want to do is throw money at everything, but whatever, your money.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

Go here and tell them that this cam is huge!

Whoever said I have never heard of using the rotella and eos?? Sheeesh you like putting words in peoples mouth's.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread! I have some ideas I'm going to try. Thanks much for the guys that actually just tried to help and give me some ideas on what the problem might actually be instead of bandaiding it with money!!
Didn't say it was huge, I said it was stout. It is much bigger than stock, that's for sure. I don't really get excited about a cam unless it's solid and over 250 degrees at .050 anyway. That leaves out hyd cams, by the way.

Besides, I know plenty about clevelands. And I did build every engine I have ever run, blown up, won, or lost with. Gotta take the good credit with the bad! lol....

Too bad you didn't listen to anything I said, because you would have seen that I tried it YOUR way more than once and had bad results. Then I tried it a better way and had no more trouble.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the stock valvetrain parts if you use a stock cam, but a bigger cam really puts those stock parts in a world of hurt. They will give sooner or later.

Good luck with whatever you do next,

Greg
 
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