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Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
Iowan, i may order a different cam when I order the balanced stroker kit from Lykins. I will see what kind of additional horsepower and torque it buys me. it may be worth a look, so thank you for bringing it up.

My427stang, I'm curious if I didn't already have what I consider the perfect cam for my original 390 goals, what would you ideally use for the 445 build? What would it gain me? And can my stock transmission accept it? I'm sure you already have these numbers in a holster. lol.
 

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I have gone back and read you thread on your 390 build and the build of your car.
I realized how your into your 390/445 and how you got there. Its always more expensive to change course after you have started.
Having said that I can understand why you don't want to spend another $200 for another cam. I've been in this position myself and have a selection of new cams that I have changed my mind on and gone with a diferant grind or had a grind I wanted to try but never got around to tying.

One thing I do with the flat tappet cam is to have it nitrated by the cam manufacturer, it's increased protection against a flat cam.

You're going to have a nice ride when you get the old vert back on the road, and if it doesn't has track lock differential you'd better get one. You going to need a good supply of rear tires also.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I appreciate that. When I first got the car, I was thinking 4.11 gears, long tube hooker competition headers, super long duration cam, high rise intake, large stall and shift kit, and a bunch of really knarly stuff. Then I found out the gearing would be terrible for the interstate and driving to cruising the coast in Biloxi so I backed off. Then I learned a high rise intake won’t fit under the hood and I’ll be lucky to get a dual plane in there. Then I discovered quite a bit of interference around the engine and frame so I went with shorty headers. Then I discovered there are oiling issues over around 5500 rpm so I capped the rpm much lower than expected. There have been concessions all the way around. But I have improved the suspension substantially and now might be adding 200hp plus torque in a very streetable package. I’m excited
 

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Discussion Starter #45
i was all wet on something earlier and want to bring it to light. after talking with Brent, the advanced cam timing on the 390 won't cause the valves to hit the piston any more with the 445 stroker than they would with the 390. the reason for retarding the cam timing from 102icl where I was going to run it on the 390 is because with increased displacement comes increased compression ratio (the stroke is longer and the rod length is longer). if i use the same cam in the 445 that I was going to use in the 390 and don't back off on timing, there will be issues with running pump gas. i think Ross covered this pretty well so I don't want this to cause the big debate to stir up again. But I was wrong on the valves hitting the pistons if running 102icl with the longer stroke, and I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong... after all I'm no expert and I didn't stay in a holiday inn express last night. lol
 

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With the small cam, big cubes and no overdrive... I think the 3.50 gear is going to be a bit much for a cruiser if it's going to see much highway time at all. The engine will be spinning pretty fast at speed, and you'll likely find yourself avoiding any 70 mph highways for any significant distance.

When I was daily driving the mustang, I found a 3.25 gear to be very livable.

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #47
good to know. I had backed off from 3.73 gearing due to possible interstate travel, but I didn't realize I might still have the same issue with around 3.50 gearing. of course I haven't taken into account up sizing the engine in regard to that. if 3.25 gearing decently moved a mustang, should I have something between that and 3.50 in order to move the galaxie? I have the stock 3.05:1 now. maybe I should just give it a try first and see how it feels.
 

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And yes I know why you advance a cam and the deference 106,108,110,112 or larger ICL and how it affects the power band as does stroke and heads,
I understand you are talking about intake centerline, which is not how the cam is ground, but how it is installed, via advancing/retarding...

That being said, I wanted to leave a word about Lobe Separation Angle, which determines overlap.
The tighter the lobe separation, the rougher the idle, and the narrower the powerband... Narrowing the LSA generally beefs up the max torque, and makes good power. Most typical older, American V8 Naturally Aspirated race cars will generally be between 106-108 degrees.

However, the tighter the LSA, the more free flowing the exhaust MUST be. The tighter lobe separation angles have more overlap, which provides increased scavenging. BUT, if the exhaust is not extremely free flowing, the exhaust will simply back up into the engine during all that extra overlap. I've seen cases so bad, that the throttle bores of the carburetor would be BLACK with soot. lol

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #49 (Edited)
when I planned to rebuild the 390, I spent a lot of time reading through FMF and other forums looking for some general consensus on solving exactly what you're saying. i debated exhaust type, size, muffler type, header type, etc.

there was debate on true dual exhaust, h-pipe, x-pipe. I opted for an x-pipe which is supposed to equalize pressure and aid scavenging because the exhaust pules are supposed to feed on one another. the only bad thing I read about the xpipe is trying to figure out how far back to install them. there's the melted wax crayon technique but that may put the xpipe directly in the middle of the transmission which won't be a good thing. so it will most likely go wherever it can fit.

mandrel bent exhaust was a big thing everyone talked about. all the new items I bought are mandrel bent. The original factory exhaust from the 60s was bent almost flat where it crossed the axles. see attached pics. turns out flowmaster makes a tailpipe kit for another vehicle that fits the galaxie, so the muffler shop doesn't have to worry about those tough bends.

the dynomax ultra flo mufflers are free flowing and can each support 2,000 SCFM and up to 2,000 horsepower. this is supposedly one of the best designs for free flowing exhaust because there are no restrictions in the muffler (i.e. like in flowmasters and other brands). i have glasspacks on the car now and this design seems like a very similar setup. I plan to install them behind the rear tires because this is also supposed to be more efficient and aid in exhaust flow by cooling the air a little more before entering the muffler. I have zero evidence or science to back that up, but this is supposedly why mufflers on new sports cars is pushed as far to the back of the car as possible.

the stock drivers side log collector is supposed to have terrible flow because the front two and back two ports fight each other to escape into the collector. i debated on using balanced long tube competition Hooker headers but after seeing the clearance issues that Fried_Daddy had in his thread "My 66 Fastback Project!! Ongoing thread", I decided for something all-but-guaranteed to have less issues. the FPA headers have individual 1-3/4" tubes that enter a 2-1/2" collector. see attached pics. I haven't test fit them on the car yet because I couldn't get them in without lifting the motor, but hopefully I don't have to ding them anywhere to ensure fitment before sending them to Jet Hot for ceramic coating.

originally, I was thinking about going with a straight up cam -- something like a Comp Cams 268H or a 270H. but after a few suggestions from folks, I opted for something with a split duration like the XE262H in order to help with scavenging. my split is a degree or two less than the XE262H but it should still have better exhaust characteristics than a straight up cam. the thought is that having the exhaust open a little longer than the intake will help the spent gasses to fully exit the engine.

the last thing I remember reading was about exhaust size. for 500hp and larger engines, it sounds like 3" is the way to go. there seemed to be a general consensus that 2-1/2" should be enough for anything less than that. I know this isn't a mustang, but I just read that the first mustang offered with 2-1/4" exhaust was the 1968 428 CJ. I think the 1970 boss 429 mustangs came with around 370 horsepower but almost 500 lb-ft of torque and had a 2-1/4" exhaust, as well. if the numbers work like Ross said earlier, my 440+ engine will have more horsepower and torque than this. It is also going in a larger vehicle with a longer exhaust system... so I'm hoping the 2-1/2" will work since all of these other aspects have been taken into account.

I think engine RPM also has to be taken into account since high RPM yields high exhaust volume. My427stang was saying this engine should top out before 5500rpm, so I'm hoping that is low enough to stay within the limitations of the 2-1/2" exhaust
 

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I understand you are talking about intake centerline, which is not how the cam is ground, but how it is installed, via advancing/retarding...

That being said, I wanted to leave a word about Lobe Separation Angle, which determines overlap.
The tighter the lobe separation, the rougher the idle, and the narrower the powerband... Narrowing the LSA generally beefs up the max torque, and makes good power. Most typical older, American V8 Naturally Aspirated race cars will generally be between 106-108 degrees.

However, the tighter the LSA, the more free flowing the exhaust MUST be. The tighter lobe separation angles have more overlap, which provides increased scavenging. BUT, if the exhaust is not extremely free flowing, the exhaust will simply back up into the engine during all that extra overlap. I've seen cases so bad, that the throttle bores of the carburetor would be BLACK with soot. lol

Good Luck!
Mike, preaching to the choir here I know, but to calm the natives. All true with LSA, but the cam has +/- 270-ish duration on both sides. Its under 55 degrees of advertised overlap and comparable to a 270H, just going with a smaller intake lobe based on his initial request for the 390

To lsugymrat - To be honest, you are a bit all over the map. 390 with a rowdy-ish cam for low RPM, then 445, and we are trying to use the same cam to save money with stock running gear, retarding it to 108 will work, if you add gear now, it's clearly a mismatched combo. That engine is a 3.00-3.25 geared engine as discussed now, if you want a 3.70, you need more cam. 3.50 is also too much but could be right on the line, in the end, you are working towards a little mismatch if you over gear it

As far as exhaust, you won't make 500 hp with your combo, and that's OK, also, I like 3 inch, but the 445 will pull HARD compared to a 390 and the way you built it, it will be fun. Now is the time for the choice, 3 inch, more cam, more gear, or 2.5 inch, current cam, current gear. Let the budget be your guide.

FYI - My 445 in a 4200lb 4x4 pickup with 3.50s and 33 inch tall tires has no issues at all and will roast the tires and pull down to where you can count cylinders, and mine is a bit more rowdy, you do not have to gear it more than the Mustang. I would even say again 3.00 or 3.25 for that combo

Let me give you one other bit of advice - build the whole car on paper then buy parts and build. Last thing you want to do is change directions and try to adapt more parts. That gets very expensive
 

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Discussion Starter #51
I’m good with stock gearing if it makes sense. I definitely need help because I don’t know how to tie it all together for a good overall street package.
 

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Iowan, i may order a different cam when I order the balanced stroker kit from Lykins. I will see what kind of additional horsepower and torque it buys me. it may be worth a look, so thank you for bringing it up.

My427stang, I'm curious if I didn't already have what I consider the perfect cam for my original 390 goals, what would you ideally use for the 445 build? What would it gain me? And can my stock transmission accept it? I'm sure you already have these numbers in a holster. lol.
This is a tough question to answer :)

1 - The right cam will make significantly more power somewhere, however there is no free lunch. Where and how much being right for you depends on what course you take on the build.


FWIW My truck 445 runs a 282/236 solid flat tappet, .580 lift, single pattern on 112 LSA, 105 ICL. I initially did something sort of similar to you, had a nice 270H, 270/224 .524 lift, 110 LSA and I retarded it to 110 ICL. It ran great at 9.98:1 with a 1000 Holley and ported RPM intake with heavily ported iron heads. However, I had an odd thing happen, a lifter base cracked, never saw one do that before. It never ate the cam because oil was pushing out the crack, strangest thing, but the lifter was noisy ebcause it couldn't hold oil when hot. Not wanting to chance it, I went with a cam appropriate for my use and my desires, both ran great and the smaller cam really was within spitting distance, but the solids let me spin it a bit higher.

2 - The thing to remember is all parts should match. So, which cam?

Well cam, intake, carb, exhaust should all be picked for displacement and intended use, then compression needs to match cam and available / desired fuel. There is a range there and lots of options and even more techniques. We can back your cam into the new build and you will have a blast, it's not far off with the tall gear.

I could pick you a cam, but we would spend more time trying to figure out the use of the car, where you had fun with the car, mileage, idle, how much I thought you could tune it, etc, and then end up somewhere. If forced though, and assuming you haven't changed end goals from the 390, just bigger, my hunch is a 224-ish intake and 230-232-ish exhaust @ .050 110 LSA on 102-106 depending on planned gear and compression (and I would like to see more lift) but there are so many variables I think you have to lock down what you want the car to do first

One comment, Brent has built a bunch of these and can easily give you a whole package. Honestly, I would push for a hyd roller too. If the car is worth a 445, it's worth the peace of mind of break in and zero maintenance. He and other builders have so many they have dyno'd and put on the streets it takes the guess work out.

3 - Can your tranny handle it?

Hell if I know LOL If you smoke your tires, if it hooks, maybe, maybe not. Some people can break a bowling ball in a sand box. However, your initial goal was to try the one you had, with the build you planned, and change to a C6 later if required. I don't think we ever thought to build to match the current tranny, that would be an odd way to build an engine.

FYI - When I was working for a Ford garage in the mid 80s, I built a 1978 Pontiac Grand Prix. Had a 301 and a Metric 200 tranny. I put in a 455 with cam, headers, intake and a 750 Holley. Drove it around town, it was awesome. Got back to the garage after the test run, powerbraked it and it went BAM, and blew the tranny. Metric 200s were anemic, but my point is, I could have driven it for years if I behaved, once I acted like the 20 year old I was, it broke :)

4 - How will the current setup perform and should you look at HP and torque for answers?


A tired 390 is likely 200 HP, if you have 450 HP and 500 ft lbs of torque that is light-switch responsive and will eat up the highway and hills like a freight train combined with a nice chop to the exhaust when you pull into a show, hard to think it won't be fun. That's more power and in a better RPM range than an R code 427 or 428 Galaxie. However, if you chase a horsepower number for your decision, you may stray away from building for your desired use.

Just so you know I practice what I preach. Doing a 462 around 525-550 HP for someone, that number is irrelevant to me right now, but for reference. In the end, if it makes 600 and isn't fun in his driving style, 525 HP might be "better".

We spent the time talking about which transmission (2 choices in 4 speeds), which rear gear, suspension, how much he wanted to drive around the block on weekends, how much chugging away at car shows, type of fuel, exhaust, the sound and part throttle performance he wanted, and how quick he wanted to be when he lined up with some of our 11.00-11.50 quarter mile buddies. We are getting close to build details, but I am not done yet. once we are done, I buy and build, we are locked to everything unless an emergency. I recommend you hit the brakes and do the same, note that most of my discussion with the 462 had nothing to do with HP, it was manners and owner's expectations (which often they don't really know until you talk about it).

A second example, my own 489 FE. I needed an engine that would be happy in 5th gear at 1800-2000 RPM for extended cruise. This is 489 inches, at the time 1000 Holley, ported alum heads and ported RPM intake. I ended up at 10.7:1 compression, zero deck, 284/242 intake, 292/248 exhaust, .600 lift solids, 110 LSA on 106. I decided to go more conservative on the cam (don't apply my numbers to you), but put more money in the heads and intake, and it paid off. My racer buddies would say I was at least 10 degrees shy, but maybe as much as 20 @ .050, but it wouldn't do what I built it for. Keep in mind that this is an engine a factory Ford racer who still owns a 68 CJ original race car said "I wish I had this engine when I was racing"

I guess in the end, cam choice has some basic rules, but you don't pick a cam with what you are trying to do, you build an engine.

One thing I recommend. Think about the use of the car for the whole summer. Drive 10 times on a highway, or zero times? Drive 60 mph or 80 mph? 70 mph cruise with occasional runs to 100? All in town never over 55? Do you like windows down with the radio or windows down with the exhaust barking? Pump gas regular or pump gas premium? Chasing buddies with new 6 speed Mustangs? or waiting for buddies with 4.56 gear strip cars? Girlfriend/wife drive the car now and then?....all the time? Once you figure out what you think you will be doing most, then a tire size and a gear ratio will give you an RPM range, then we can start picking, but be true to yourself. Your engine can range from 400-600 hp, just add money, but more important is to match it to use
 

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Discussion Starter #53
You make an excellent point. I’ve got it in my mind what I want to do with this car but I’ve been asking questions that don’t line up with those goals. Part of that is because of reading conventional wisdoms about these vehicles. Part of that is trying to make the most of what’s on the car already (390, transmission, gears). I’ve never really sat down with an expert, explained my goals and what I have at hand, and made a solid plan, and therefore I feel like I’m chasing my tail. Part of that is because I don’t really trust the local places in my area for this. This is an excellent observation
 

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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
I'm surprised that if you like the horizontal gasket above the float bowls that you didn't consider an Edelbrock carb.
I had an edelbrock in a shopping cart on summit for a long time. Read many accounts of heat soak issues and tendency to lose prime overnight and such.

Was looking at a demon carb with annular boosters. Didn’t like the price. Then Holley bought them and redesigned them. Heard good and bad with those.

Went with the summit carb for the annular boosters and Teflon coating and old Holley design. Turns out it was a good thing it was undersized for the new build idea and I needed to return it. Apparently they leak at the throttle shaft with no way to fix it. Maybe that’s why Holley abandoned the design.

i liked the 2 barrel autolite on the galaxie. With fuel in the carb, I could take the lid off to trouble shoot and bolt it back up. I’m thinking with a new carb, There are so many external adjustments, I won’t have to trouble shoot in this manner.

Even though I avoided leaks with the autolite because of the gasket being above the fuel line... I’ve had plenty of leaks at the power valve on the front of the car... even after sanding the plate flat, replacing the gasket, and rebolting it. That seems like pretty much the same application on all carbs.

At the end of the day, I’ve read bad things and good things about pretty much every carb out there. I hope the quick fuel does a good job. Guess time will tell
 

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Remember, you aren't inventing anything, search Survival's forum and look for something of similar cid that peaks around 5200-5500, talk to Brent. We have all built a bunch of these now, all you are doing is a mild 445 (assuming that is the picture in your mind) People do it all the time
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Like you said earlier, exact same goals as with the 390 just with a larger displacement since I’m considered reworking the bottom end of the motor. I will definitely give Brent a call. Might even bring him the motor and have him rebuild it. Might be fun to make a road trip or two
 

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Like you said earlier, exact same goals as with the 390 just with a larger displacement since I’m considered reworking the bottom end of the motor. I will definitely give Brent a call. Might even bring him the motor and have him rebuild it. Might be fun to make a road trip or two
Might be a good idea. You can exchange ideas face to face in real life... hear what he recommends, and if he builds it, he will be able to handle all the 'gotchas' ...and with an FE, there are plenty of small things to look out for.

Good Luck!
 

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I have an Edelbrock Performer 500 on my 289 Ranchero, and I did add a 1/2" phenolic spacer under it after reading about the heat soak issues. Just returned from a 16 day, 9 state, 4800 mile road trip with it, and it performed flawlessly, starting with a 1/4 pump & the first turn of the key everyday, any temperature, any elevation. That included the Bonneville Salt Flats and the Continental Divide (elev. 9584). I will never own another brand of carb.
 

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I guess all I wanted to know was why set such low goals for a engine that you are going through the expense of stroker kit and aftermarket heads. You might as well build the 390 especially if you don't want to change everything else.

If you want the performance of a 460, use a 460, I've got a 30 over 460 in my shop with 20K on it that I'd sell for $500 and I'm sure there's more out there.
Hell you could have a 545" with a 460 block and a stroker kit for the same money.
 
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