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Discussion Starter #61 (Edited)
I can still build a 390 but I need to go through the lower end. My original question was if spending the money to go through the 390 lower end, does it make sense to stroke the motor. Seems like I would gain lots of cubes and associated hp and torque for not too much more money.

Going with a 460 would be awesome if I didn’t already have aluminum heads, headers, intake, pulleys, fuel pump, oil pan, cam, lifters, etc for the FE motor. I also think it will be kinda neat to keep the original motor and transmission... even with all the mods I’m doing.

I actually do have original Lincoln heads and a c6 transmission for a 460 in my shed. These are from the old truck I had. I’d be happy to sell those if someone needs them for a 460
 

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460s are great motors, and many have said, once you switch to one you won't go back to an FE for cost vs power.

However they are heavier, longer, and take some thinking for a swap, although MANY have done it in a Galaxie. I will say, one of the most fun trucks I ever put together was in the 80s and was an absolutely simple combo. Rebuilt a stock 1969 429, added a 292H Comp Cam, a Torker intake (might have been Torker 2) a 750 vac sec and headers. It amazed me how strong it was as a 390 guy back then. Dirt cheap and strong.

Get with Brent or any other FE builder and work something out. Being from Baton Rouge, my guess is Brent is closest, avoid non-FE not because of difficulty in building one, but familiarity with combos that work. Brent won't be cheap, but I will tell you, you will get a dyno tested and well sorted out build, regardless of a cam change or not. You'll slip it between the fenders and drive off.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
I agree. To fit the 460 Lincoln motor in the 68 ranger, they had to cut the firewall. They are definitely longer and heavier. There’s not much room with the FE motor in the Galaxie.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
Not to prolong convo on an issue that’s already settled but I took a look at FE vs 385 motors just to confirm.
460 is 2” longer, 1” taller, and 100lbs more than the FE.
the FE is already very close to the hood, the firewall and the radiator on the galaxie.
 

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Not to prolong convo on an issue that’s already settled but I took a look at FE vs 385 motors just to confirm.
460 is 2” longer, 1” taller, and 100lbs more than the FE.
the FE is already very close to the hood, the firewall and the radiator on the galaxie.
The FE also looks RIGHT in those cars! A well built FE, especially a 445 stroker, will definitely make you SMILE when you hit the loud pedal! :grin2:
 

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Discussion Starter #67 (Edited)
Here’s a similar one from barry at survival. If you read the comments it has similar setup

Ford FE 390 445 Survival Motorsports "Prison Break" stroker on dyno - 450 horsepower and over 500 lbs torque. Basic 9.8:1 compression, pump gas, Edelbrock heads and RPM intake, hydraulic roller cam (218/224 duration, .563/.563 lift). Idles at 800 RPM with 13+ inches of vacuum. Stock oil pan, no windage tray, no porting or port matching, no trick parts

 

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Just another well-done but common street 445 build, Barry is a friend and does great work. That combo would be superb for you and Brent does similar builds as well. Keep in mind though, the cam Barry used will have significantly more advertised duration and is installed later (retarded) as well as a wider LSA and more lift, so although, like I said earlier,yours should do about the same if you put some thought in it, just because the cam .050 numbers look familiar, doesn't mean its the same

FWIW, all your parts in a 445, with the cam at 108 ICL (6 degrees retarded from where it is ground), should be pretty similar, however, you will need to run a bit less compression. I would say ideal is 9.5-9.7:1 with a tight quench, you can't go with the common 10:1 kit package. Even if you go a thick head gasket, you'll lower compression but lose quench benefit. Seems like it wouldn't make much difference, but it can in a heavy car.

If I were you, I would have your block prepped, square deck the block to the crank, shoot for 10.160 but easily go as short as 10.155 deck height, then ask go for minimum overbore with a deck plate. 4.07 would be .020 over and give a good thick cylinder, but .030 is fine too. Then we can calculate quench, compression and order a set of Autotec pistons for your build (no more expensive than the "kits" and the exact compression you need and a good metric rings set (5-10 HP gain), also order an internally balanced crank, a set of SCAT I-beam rods. With tat info we will tell you where to put the cam you have, and go for it

I am doing the same thing with a 462 for a CJ car, and I think I am leaning toward a 472 FE for my F-100 and will do it again. If you have the budget and the car is nice enough, this is a no-brainer.

However, like I tell anyone that rolls in, if you don't have the budget, that's OK too, build a 390, they run great too

I wish I could build it for you, but Omaha is a long way away. My CJ guy is willing to eat up the budget to ship things both ways, and we'll likely dyno at Brent's just for fun, especially if I can get both (or three) done in time. Knowing Brent is within driving distance, he's the right guy if you decide to pay someone/

Last comment, I temporarily slipped a little zero deck 390 in my F100, nothing fancy,. 216/228 cam, low .500s in lift, unported but fresh heads, 9.25:1 compression, Streetmaster single plane and a 750. It runs real strong, strong enough that I keep telling myself I should just slip my ported heads and intake and put an EFI kit on it instead of building the stroker, and so nice with the 750 I even doubt the EFI

Only pointing this out because in the end, going back to the original plan, a good cam in a fresh 390 with good heads, intake and the big carb will run great. Don't let us spend all your money if that's the way we are pushing you. Brent has a stout 390 going on the dyno on Friday and a wild one in the works, all of us don't only build strokers

If you do that, block prep is the same, you save significantly on balancing, pistons are a wash, likely reuse your cranks and rods. Something to think about.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
That being said, prepping the block, boring, and install new pistons/rings will happen either way.

the big cost decision is to turn and reuse the existing crank/rods versus buying a new scat crank/rods with the larger Chevy style journals. What’s the real cost difference there?

There is a local shop that everyone uses around here. They do good work. he says he has done numerous 390 builds. I’m not sure if they have a dyno like Brent has or if they can run-in the engine before I take it. He likes using eagle but I’ve heard bad things about eagle in forums. That kinda worries me. So he suggested he could clean and work the block, then after seeing how the cylinders clean up, I can order the new stuff from Lykins if it makes me feel better.

After all the conversations we’ve had over the last year, I feel more comfortable using you or Brent. Your shop is a 15 hour drive. Brent’s is a 10 hour drive. Neither is that terribly convenient. :laugh: if either of you were local, it would be a done deal.
 

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the cam Barry used will have significantly more advertised duration and is installed later (retarded) as well as a wider LSA and more lift, so although, like I said earlier,yours should do about the same if you put some thought in it, just because the cam .050 numbers look familiar, doesn't mean its the same

FWIW, all your parts in a 445, with the cam at 108 ICL (6 degrees retarded from where it is ground), should be pretty similar, however, you will need to run a bit less compression. I would say ideal is 9.5-9.7:1 with a tight quench, you can't go with the common 10:1 kit package.
I have NEVER been a fan of trying to force a non-ideal camshaft to work in a given combo... and have NEVER, EVER been a fan of retarding one past where it was ground... especially 6 degrees!

You may have the compression thing backwards. Advancing the cam closes the intake valve sooner, trapping more air, and increasing cranking compression. To run a cam retarded as much as you are recommending, would kill compression... not the other way around.

I would recommend getting in touch with Barry, and converting to hydraulic roller. Have him sell you everything you need. He will know the exact parts to use for a successful build. If you're going through Brent, he should know what you need as well. But, Barry seems to have that combo dialed!

Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #71
I have NEVER been a fan of trying to force a non-ideal camshaft to work in a given combo... and have NEVER, EVER been a fan of retarding one past where it was ground... especially 6 degrees!

You may have the compression thing backwards. Advancing the cam closes the intake valve sooner, trapping more air, and increasing cranking compression. To run a cam retarded as much as you are recommending, would kill compression... not the other way around.

I would recommend getting in touch with Barry, and converting to hydraulic roller. Have him sell you everything you need. He will know the exact parts to use for a successful build. If you're going through Brent, he should know what you need as well. But, Barry seems to have that combo dialed!

Good Luck
Mike, I don’t have the same kit as Barry, but let’s say I did. And let’s say everything else was the same and I wanted to match Barry’s build. If the dot on the front of Barry’s cam was at 108icl and mine was at 102icl, why not retard my cam 6 degrees to match Barry’s? Seems like that’s what My427stang is suggesting. Would you suggest buying a new cam just to have the dot put in a different place on the front of it?

I agree with everyone that the hydro rollers are a better performer and take away the chance of eating a lobe. Not sure I like the extra cost of the whole setup or the additional changes to the valve train. Not sure the chance of eating a lobe is too high for a low duration cam. Costwise, I’d have to eat $300 for the flat tappet cam and lifters I have in hand and I’m guess it would cost another $1000 or so for the new cam, lifters, and valve train. I’m not sure if it’s worth it or not.
 

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Mike, I don’t have the same kit as Barry, but let’s say I did. And let’s say everything else was the same and I wanted to match Barry’s build. If the dot on the front of Barry’s cam was at 108icl and mine was at 102icl, why not retard my cam 6 degrees to match Barry’s? Seems like that’s what My427stang is suggesting. Would you suggest buying a new cam just to have the dot put in a different place on the front of it?

I agree with everyone that the hydro rollers are a better performer and take away the chance of eating a lobe. Not sure I like the extra cost of the whole setup or the additional changes to the valve train. Not sure the chance of eating a lobe is too high for a low duration cam. Costwise, I’d have to eat $300 for the flat tappet cam and lifters I have in hand and I’m guess it would cost another $1000 or so for the new cam, lifters, and valve train. I’m not sure if it’s worth it or not.
Eating a lobe means tearing the entire engine down again... all new bearings, etc. Most people go hydraulic roller for that reason alone. Flat tappets were a very good option until lifter quality went to crap. That, and it's been blamed in changing oil additives as well. It seemed like eating a lifter went from being extremely rare, to almost a 50/50 chance overnight. I've been successful, but I had lifters purchased before all the problems, and used high zinc oil.

As for the cam... what you are saying is not necessarily apples to apples.
If you had two IDENTICAL cams, one installed at 108 and one at 102, then yes... you could simply retard it 6 degrees to match.

Is you cam designed to be installed at 102? That is extremely advanced for any kind of street cam! What are your cam specs, including Lobe Separation Angle? If it has a 110-112 degree LSA, installing it at 102 is advanced 8-10 degrees... which is pretty extreme. Please share the specs, including LSA. Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Eating a lobe means tearing the entire engine down again... all new bearings, etc. Most people go hydraulic roller for that reason alone. Flat tappets were a very good option until lifter quality went to crap. That, and it's been blamed in changing oil additives as well. It seemed like eating a lifter went from being extremely rare, to almost a 50/50 chance overnight. I've been successful, but I had lifters purchased before all the problems, and used high zinc oil.
Well poop. Lol. I was hoping the non aggressive ramps coupled with crower camsaver lifters and comp cams high zinc oil would make everything ok. Sounds like I need to rethink this
 

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Eating a lobe means tearing the entire engine down again... all new bearings, etc. Most people go hydraulic roller for that reason alone. Flat tappets were a very good option until lifter quality went to crap. That, and it's been blamed in changing oil additives as well. It seemed like eating a lifter went from being extremely rare, to almost a 50/50 chance overnight. I've been successful, but I had lifters purchased before all the problems, and used high zinc oil.

As for the cam... what you are saying is not necessarily apples to apples.
If you had two IDENTICAL cams, one installed at 108 and one at 102, then yes... you could simply retard it 6 degrees to match.

Is you cam designed to be installed at 102? That is extremely advanced for any kind of street cam! What are your cam specs, including Lobe Separation Angle? If it has a 110-112 degree LSA, installing it at 102 is advanced 8-10 degrees... which is pretty extreme. Please share the specs, including LSA. Thanks
Mike,

This guy isn't making this stuff up on his own, he is talking to me and Brent. Yes he picked the cam for a 390 and changed his tune, yes, Brent especially would likely push for a baby hydraulic roller, yes, I would like to see more lift and advertised duration for a stroker, but for his low rpm torquer, the cam would work fine, it has more overlap than a stock CJ cam, more lift than a stock CJ cam and similar duration. The cam is 108 LSA on a 102 centerline. Brent has been doing that a while to keep torque up on a small displacement FEs if the compression supports it

The complete specs for the cam are is 218/[email protected]", 268/268 advertised, .493"/.534" lift, 108LSA on 102ICL.

As I said earlier, retarding it 6 degrees is irrelevant, nothing odd about running a 108 LSA cam straight up (at 108 ICL), in fact, it's more common than the 102 ICL

Think CJ behavior not 427 Cobra behavior, this cam will work just fine, unless he wants to dump it for a hydraulic roller, placing the cam where it belongs makes perfect sense
 

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Well poop. Lol. I was hoping the non aggressive ramps coupled with crower camsaver lifters and comp cams high zinc oil would make everything ok. Sounds like I need to rethink this
It's easy to break in a cam with the right parts, I did two in the past two weeks. One a 272/284 hyd flat tappet with Speedpro lifters and a 260 open pressure, and another a 280/224 intake, 280/230 exhaust with the camsavers. If pressures are right and oil is right and you do it correctly, it's a big old nothing-burger.

The people who mix and match and guess, then don't check for interference, and/or try to prime the pump with the starter or use oil they aren't supposed to eat cams.
 

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Discussion Starter #76
As for the cam... what you are saying is not necessarily apples to apples.
If you had two IDENTICAL cams, one installed at 108 and one at 102, then yes... you could simply retard it 6 degrees to match. Is you cam designed to be installed at 102? That is extremely advanced for any kind of street cam! What are your cam specs, including Lobe Separation Angle? If it has a 110-112 degree LSA, installing it at 102 is advanced 8-10 degrees... which is pretty extreme. Please share the specs, including LSA. Thanks
Ross had talked through all of the cam specs earlier so I didn’t think to post them again. This was for a somewhat street mannered 390 hydro flat tappet to reuse stock valve train and outperform a 428cj while maintaining enough vacuum for power steering and such

219 intake .05 with .491 valve lift intake
222 exhaust .05 with .533 valve lift exhaust
102icl (usual is 108icl for straight up install)
108 lsa
 

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Is you cam designed to be installed at 102? That is extremely advanced for any kind of street cam! What are your cam specs, including Lobe Separation Angle? If it has a 110-112 degree LSA, installing it at 102 is advanced 8-10 degrees... which is pretty extreme. Please share the specs, including LSA. Thanks
I went and looked... Your cam is ground on a 108 degree LSA. You didn't mention whether it was ground advanced or not.

But, regardless... Even if it was ground 4 degrees advanced, retarding it EIGHT degrees puts you well behind what it was ground at. Cam companies almost NEVER grind a cam retarded. If anything, they grind them advanced. I've heard of lots of people, including myself, installing cams advanced... but, have never heard of anyone purposely installing cams retarded.

The OEM's actually installed cams retarded in an effort to reduce NOX emissions back in the 70's. Totally killed the cylinder pressure, as that's what produces NOX emissions. Kills power in the process. Advancing those cams brought a lot of the power back.

Get one of Barry's Hydraulic Roller cams. With the short duration, you need the valve action to be as quick as possible, in order to move enough air to make decent power. A nice hydraulic roller is the way to go. Barry looks like he has a winner.

Good Luck!
 

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I went and looked... Your cam is ground on a 108 degree LSA. You didn't mention whether it was ground advanced or not.

But, regardless... Even if it was ground 4 degrees advanced, retarding it EIGHT degrees puts you well behind what it was ground at. Cam companies almost NEVER grind a cam retarded. If anything, they grind them advanced. I've heard of lots of people, including myself, installing cams advanced... but, have never heard of anyone purposely installing cams retarded.

The OEM's actually installed cams retarded in an effort to reduce NOX emissions back in the 70's. Totally killed the cylinder pressure, as that's what produces NOX emissions. Kills power in the process. Advancing those cams brought a lot of the power back.

Get one of Barry's Hydraulic Roller cams. With the short duration, you need the valve action to be as quick as possible, in order to move enough air to make decent power. A nice hydraulic roller is the way to go. Barry looks like he has a winner.

Good Luck!
Edited because I sounded a little grumpy. LOL Mike got it spot on in his next post.....
 

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Okay... I get the full picture now. It looks like it has a 108 LSA, but has 6 degrees of advance GROUND into it. In that case, by all means, advance it 6 degrees, and effective install it 'straight up'. It's rare for a cam to be ground with that much advance, and for some reason, I was thinking it was advised that he retard it 8 degrees instead of 6. Must have read it wrong, or something.

BUT... taking a cam ground +6, and retarding it with a chain -6 to effective install it straight up is not a problem.

If a hydraulic roller conversion is not in the budget, this cam, with it's slow ramps, will likely be just fine. Regardless of which cam you end up using, it's going to feel extremely strong when you hit the loud pedal. :)

Good Luck!
 
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