Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Need some advice on a new carb and intake choice for my 67 289..
My GALAXIE is bone stock with the exception of an Hei distributor and dual exhaust..

I'VE a holley on it now and its nothing but troublesome since new.. 3 years ago.
I use my car as a daily.. I dont drive it hard. Never race it. All i want is reliability and not to always smell raw gas.
Thx for any help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'll have to get a model number off it after work. But i do believe it to be a 600 cfm vacuum secondary electric choke.
I bought it at AutoZone in a pinch 3 years ago after my stock autolite fell apart.
It was either that or leave my car sit out in the boon docks till i could get one from summit.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,379 Posts
What's the problem with your current Holley? They are easy to tune.
If they were no good, Ford would never have used them, especially on their multi carb set ups.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Well.. I could go out to start it.. say its around 45..55 degrees, cars sat all night.. starts up idles just fine puurrs like a kitten.. gets warm.. drive half mile down the road ,,come to a stop falls on its face.. raw gas so bad youx get sick... get it going again.. blow all that out.. and it'll run great.. so say you drive around town.. no problem.. run to the store.. shut it off.. wont HARDLY start.. barely get it home..

Next day she runs fine.. go to pull out into an intersection and it actually just shuts off. Im not joking around.. i barely pushed tbe accelerator and it actually just shut off.. no sputter.. nuthing.. it just freaking shut off...

Say it sets for 2 days.. go out fire it up.. around 65 degrees.. and it wont even idle.. dies so bad i cant even get it out of tbe drive..
Ive watched many tunning videos.. and thought maybe i could do this..
But ill tell u.. ive had 3.. 4.. different Holley carburetor over the years on different motors and only 1 was ever worth a crap i felt.

It was a 500cfm 2 barrel on my 65 mustang in high school 30 years ago.
Ive just no faith in them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
You have a vacuum leak somewhere...

Intermittent and/or temperature related.

Cracked hose, leaky/torn gasket, etc....

Holley carbs generally run great right out of the box, esp in a stock application, and IF the carb is the right one for the application.

Race carbs need tuning cuz every race engine/chassis combo is different.

Possibly have ignition problems as well...

The raw gas smell screams sticky needle and seat, and/or fuel line leaks somewhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34 Posts
I had the same symptoms when my electronic ignition module was going out. Mine was a Mallory. Want through a couple of them until I found out that voltage surges were the possible cause of it malfunctioning. Haven't had the problem in 3yrs since I put relays in for the halogen headlights. I was smelling gas also, and thought it was carborator. After a bit it would start and run ok. Next time this happens check for spark at the plugs, this will let you know if it's the ignition module. Hope that this possibility might help. Next t
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I was thinking that possibly the carb was just to big. 600cfm.

I'LL check for vacuum leaks but i dont think there is one.. but maybe..
Also ill pull the carb see if the gasket is torn.. or do you mean inside the carb as well??
I dont understand the temperature related part ( please explain)


And by pulling one plug and hitting the key and it sparks does that mean its not the module??
Or do i have to go one plug at a time ??

I really appreciate the help guys thx.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
I was thinking that possibly the carb was just to big. 600cfm.

I'LL check for vacuum leaks but i dont think there is one.. but maybe..
Also ill pull the carb see if the gasket is torn.. or do you mean inside the carb as well??
I dont understand the temperature related part ( please explain)


And by pulling one plug and hitting the key and it sparks does that mean its not the module??
Or do i have to go one plug at a time ??

I really appreciate the help guys thx.
1. 600cfm is not too big.

2. Torn or leaky carb base gasket... maybe.
Inside the carb... unlikely, but possible.

3. Temp related vacuum leaks...

Hoses can be cracked and not leak until warmed up. (expansion)

Hot/Cold Expansion/Contraction of almost anything... including rubber hoses.

Example; PCV system leaks that don't show up until warm/hot. Bad PCV valve.

Also gaskets can leak if things are not properly torqued, and the leak will change depending on temp.
Intake gaskets, intake bolt torque are critical.

4. Ignition module...

Just because it makes spark cranking, does not mean it is good at all times. (hot/cold)

Ignition modules can go bad and work intermittently.
Usually heat related, they warm up when in use.
That's why the are built into an aluminum housing, to dissipate the heat.
The aluminum housing acts as a heat sink.

Run the car for 1/2 an hour and put your hand on the module, it will be warm,
even if mounted in an area that does not get warm from engine heat.

One way to test...
Start engine and put a 100 watt light bulb (LIT-UP) on the module to really get it hot.

Observe spark and/or if engine starts to run poorly or dies.

That should keep you busy for a while... :wink2:
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,678 Posts
When my Autolite 4100 did that, it was because the float was set too high.

Well, that was one time. Another time the choke was sticking closed, and another time the PCV hose had come off the carburetor (now that was a serious vacuum leak). Another leak was when I took off the spacer, not realizing that it was needed get the carb to fit correctly on an Edelbrock intake. Another vacuum leak happened when the nipple on my Power Brake check valve broke.

Another time the power valve gasket that came with the rebuild kit was too thin and let the gas drain out of the bowl every night. That reminds me on the time the accelerator pump housing got warped and was leaking gas onto the intake every time I hit the pedal. Another time my homemade weight that sits on the ball bearing got jammed up in the accelerator squirter... hey, that reminds me of the time those squirters were too low and I had to double up on the hollow bolt gasket to get them up right. On my first rebuild I did not run the carburetor with cleaner in the bottom of the bowl and did not make sure the little idle holes near the throttle plates were cleared. Turning my idle screws has never done anything.

Right now I have the throttle plates set so all the idle holes except one are above the plates. This is where it is supposed to be but the idle is too low for me. Some day soon I am going to pull the carb and open the secondaries just a tad, enough to raise the idle without having to raise the primary plate.

Probably these are Autolite specific failures but I am sure Holly has a similar list. I just can't understand why people love their EFIs. Good Luck!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
205 Posts
If you decide to change your carb, I highly recommend an Edelbrock. My 289 came with a Holley 600 on it, and like you, it was nothing but trouble. It could be the previous owner thought he was a carb tuner, but wasn't! I replaced it with an Edelbrock #1403 500 cfm, and haven't touched it in over 3 years- great right out of the box. Last August a buddy & I took it on a 16-day, 9-state, 4800 mile road trip, and it averaged between 17 and 20 mpg, fully loaded.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Ok .. please forgive me here.. maube dumb question.. do you still have an ignition module when YOU have an hei style distributor?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
Ok .. please forgive me here.. maube dumb question.. do you still have an ignition module when YOU have an hei style distributor?
Which HEI style distributor do you have? Brand?

Some have a separate module mounted on the fender.

Some have the module inside the distributor.

I assumed you had the Ford style with the module on the fender.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
As to the make i dont know.. always thought it might be patronix but just because it's red does it mean so. Is that not the ignition module on the very top of the distributor cap?
Forgive the state of dirtiness she gets used a lot so far I've been quite fortunate I put many more miles on it than I have wrenched time
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
As to the make i dont know.. always thought it might be patronix but just because it's red does it mean so. Is that not the ignition module on the very top of the distributor cap?
Forgive the state of dirtiness she gets used a lot so far I've been quite fortunate I put many more miles on it than I have wrenched time
Hello My67Galaxie,

Your distributor is an aftermarket GM first generation HEI made to fit a Ford engine. The module is at the base of the distributor inside under the rotor. The hump in the cap is the ignition coil. I've never known a first gen General Motors HEI module to have intermittent problems, but there is always a first. Just make sure the carbon button on the inside of the cap is present and pressing down enough to touch the top conductive metal tang on the rotor. Whilst you're in there you might as well check to make sure the mechanical advance portion is free and not frozen due to rust or hardened grease.

A lot of folks like this GM ignition setup because it's compact and doesn't require the use of a resistance wire unlike the vast majority of Ford Duraspark electronic systems. The only exception are the mid to late 70's California emissions Ford Duraspark ignition module with the red sleeve (versus the common blue). That system requires no resistance wire with the correctly mated ignition coil.

Good luck.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
Hello My67Galaxie,

Your distributor is an aftermarket GM first generation HEI made to fit a Ford engine. The module is at the base of the distributor inside under the rotor. The hump in the cap is the ignition coil. I've never known a first gen General Motors HEI module to have intermittent problems, but there is always a first. Just make sure the carbon button on the inside of the cap is present and pressing down enough to touch the top conductive metal tang on the rotor. Whilst you're in there you might as well check to make sure the mechanical advance portion is free and not frozen due to rust or hardened grease.

A lot of folks like this GM ignition setup because it's compact and doesn't require the use of a resistance wire unlike the vast majority of Ford Duraspark electronic systems. The only exception are the mid to late 70's California emissions Ford Duraspark ignition module with the red sleeve (versus the common blue). That system requires no resistance wire with the correctly mated ignition coil.

Good luck.

Cheers
With all due respect...

Ahhh, but I have.

Those 1st gen GM HEI modules have a weakness.

The wires from the module that exit the dist housing, they flex inside the housing whenever the vac advance moves.

The actual wire strands break INSIDE the insulation and make intermittent contact.

The symptom of accelerating and having the engine die is because when you tip into the throttle,
the vac advance moves flexing the wires, and the wires lose connection.

Then by luck, or the moon and stars, the wires come back into contact and the engine fires up again..... until the next time...

Eventually they completely lose contact and of course... the engine won't run.

ANYTIME you have an intermittent running engine with a GM HEI...

CHECK THOSE WIRES.... very carefully, because the break is inside the insulation and the wire will "look fine"... but it's not.

I have run into this so many times over the years it's not even funny anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Does this cause the raw fuel?
The hard starts and the simply shutting off when i come to a stop??

How do you check for broken wires if its inside the insulation??
Is there a replacement that i can simply unplug and buy new and just plug back in?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,156 Posts
With all due respect...

Ahhh, but I have.

Those 1st gen GM HEI modules have a weakness.

The wires from the module that exit the dist housing, they flex inside the housing whenever the vac advance moves.

The actual wire strands break INSIDE the insulation and make intermittent contact.

The symptom of accelerating and having the engine die is because when you tip into the throttle,
the vac advance moves flexing the wires, and the wires lose connection.

Then by luck, or the moon and stars, the wires come back into contact and the engine fires up again..... until the next time...

Eventually they completely lose contact and of course... the engine won't run.

ANYTIME you have an intermittent running engine with a GM HEI...

CHECK THOSE WIRES.... very carefully, because the break is inside the insulation and the wire will "look fine"... but it's not.

I have run into this so many times over the years it's not even funny anymore.
Hello galaxiex,

Thank you for posting that. I guess as the old cliche goes, your mileage will vary. None of my car chums who sported that style GM HEI never had problems nor I with a similar distributor that's been on my early 70's Caprice Classic for 20+ years now and still working just fine.

The wires in mine are a silicone high strand count and very flexible, similar to lab grade test leads. I wonder if certain OEM years or indeed certain aftermarket suppliers cut corners with the wiring at some point.

But I can definitely imagine intermittent problems if you're seeing breaks in the wiring.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
639 Posts
Hello galaxiex,

Thank you for posting that. I guess as the old cliche goes, your mileage will vary. None of my car chums who sported that style GM HEI never had problems nor I with a similar distributor that's been on my early 70's Caprice Classic for 20+ years now and still working just fine.

The wires in mine are a silicone high strand count and very flexible, similar to lab grade test leads. I wonder if certain OEM years or indeed certain aftermarket suppliers cut corners with the wiring at some point.

But I can definitely imagine intermittent problems if you're seeing breaks in the wiring.

Cheers
Yes, that is the key thing, good quality flexible wires.

The early oem modules had very coarse and stiff wires, and as you can imagine,
they are very troublesome.

GM did upgrade the modules with better quality wires later in production,
and AFAIK the aftermarket modules have decent wire as well,
tho these days with cheap MIC parts.. who knows what you will get.

As mentioned, I have seen this issue many times over the years, tho not lately...

Probably my first encounter was approx 1979 or so.

Customer vehicle we did auto trans overhaul, TH-350, (I am trans rebuilder going on 40+ years)
Got trans installed and didn't work right.
Problem was vacuum issue. Lotsa vacuum leaks. (auto trans requires good vacuum to modulator)
Got vacuum leaks fixed and now dist vacuum advance started working... annnnd...
Now engine won't run properly.
Dies when you tip in throttle and vac advance moves. Start and idle ok.

Before, with vacuum leaks, dist vac advance was not working.
We fix leaks... vac advance (and tranny) works but engine dies.

Go figure... ALL things are related, when trouble shooting engine (or any) problem,
all aspects of complete system must be considered.

:wink2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
sounds good , but i think you are confused about how vacuum advance works. it's source of vacuum is independant of manifold vacuum, where you found leaks
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top