Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum banner

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Its time to reveal the new hammer for the GT. The short block arrive safely on end in this crate:





Dart SHP 4.125" bore with SRP pistons:



4 bolt mains on the 3 center webs. The main studs were a free option:



Scat 4" stroke, 2.75" main forged lightweight crankshaft with 6.250 length forged Scat H-beam and the upgraded APR 2000 cap screw bolts:










Dart put freeze plugs on the front of the block so it will be hard to pass it off as a stocker:




Zero decked with a 19cc dish. With a 58cc head and a .040 head gasket it will come out to 11.1-1 compression which should be streetable with 93 octane fuel:



Has the proper casting to add my factory Z-bar. Will need drilled and tapped:





205 AFR's:



Temporily assembled to check the fit of various parts:










Rollmaster Gold timing chain and a hardened cam retainer:



.040" thick headgaskets:




For some reason the oil filter nipple had to be purchased separately-glad that I asked about it:



Neutral SFI balancer:



Had my aluminum flywheel neutral balanced too:





All looks good with only a couple of tweaks needed. I have since taken it all apart again and put it back in storage until I order my cam.

Due to lack of shock tower header clearance in the Mustang, this year's build uses the same 205 AFR's as before plus the same Vic Jr. intake, carb, headers, etc. I have trial fitted a Super Victor and with about $250 of machining, it will fit nicely under the current hood. Saving that mod for a future date. After Christmas I will order the cam from Ed Curtis--the AFR head guru. Although I was planning on running another SR, due to our planned future plant closure and the uncertainty beyond that, I feel I better take a financially lower maintenance route so this one more than likely will be hydraulic roller. I won't have to worry about the periodic rebuilding of the SR lifters and regular replacements of the springs. Ed said he could give me up to a 6800 rpm power band with the full combo-of course the heads will be the cork that prevents it from going higher. The crossing line rpm's should be perfect though with the big new slicks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
Hydraulic Roller won't make the power of a Solid Roller. Why don't you go with Comp's XE Solid Street Roller cam. It's designed for street and easier on parts, and still better than HYD roller. I know guys with 20k miles with Comp XE street solid roller, and same lifters. And they drive it hard on the street man.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Hydraulic Roller won't make the power of a Solid Roller. Why don't you go with Comp's XE Solid Street Roller cam. It's designed for street and easier on parts, and still better than HYD roller. I know guys with 20k miles with Comp XE street solid roller, and same lifters. And they drive it hard on the street man.
I agree that a good SR is capable of more power, but I personally had one come apart and the amount of damage is terrifying-and the cause of this new build. I fully intended to go this route again (with better rollers) until I saw that I will have a financial cap in the near future.

I also believe that a capable custom cam designer can make a hydraulic grind that will better the performance of the off the shelf Comp street solid roller grinds-especially considering the cubic inches that will need fed which the XE cams do not take into account.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,490 Posts
Rollmaster Gold timing chain and a hardened cam retainer:

Dennis, where did you find the hardened cam retainer plate that is reamed out for those type bolts? Is the Ford Racing unit like that?

I know from experience that a steel cam gear WILL wear into a cast iron retainer plate. I've drilled a little hole in the plate's groove before to allow oil to get to that mating surface, and it definitely helps... but, it still wears.

My current chain has the Torrington bearing for cam gear side of the retainer (requiring the recessed bolts) but the side of the retainer the cam rides on will still be cast iron vs. billet cam core. I'm thinking I need a billet retainer plate to be safe.

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Yes Mike, that is a hardened cam retainer from Ford Racing and it is required for billet timing sets. They do not come with the tappered holes, but I added them at work using carbide equipment. It has the little oiling groove on the side that is not shown.

The Rollmaster cam gear shown also uses torrington bearings.

Ed Curtis sells a good retainer prepped with the tappered holes. It also includes an additional torrington bearing to ride against the cam. Nifty, but expensive IIRC.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,490 Posts
Yes Mike, that is a hardened cam retainer from Ford Racing and it is required for billet camshafts. They do not come with the tappered holes, but I added them at work using carbide equipment. It has the little oiling groove on the side that is not shown.

The Rollmaster cam gear shown also uses torrington bearings.

Ed Curtis sells a good retainer prepped with the tappered holes. It also includes an additional torrington bearing to ride against the cam. Nifty, but expensive IIRC.
Thanks Dennis. They don't have any of that cool equipment where I work. lol

I'm wondering if the Steel Ford Racing plate will be compatible with the billet cam... as I have no means of machining anything that's hardened.

You have any idea about the ballpark price of the piece Ed sells?

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Thanks Dennis. They don't have any of that cool equipment where I work. lol

I'm wondering if the Steel Ford Racing plate will be compatible with the billet cam... as I have no means of machining anything that's hardened.

You have any idea about the ballpark price of the piece Ed sells?

Thanks!
A steel one should work just fine. Its really the billet timing gear that is the problem and the torrington will not damage the retainer.

Ed's piece is $150 when its on sale. :eek:

FTI-Cam Retainer Plate SBF-CR1 - FlowTech Induction
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
A steel one should work just fine. Its really the billet timing gear that is the problem and the torrington will not damage the retainer.

Ed's piece is $150 when its on sale. :eek:

FTI-Cam Retainer Plate SBF-CR1 - FlowTech Induction

What kind of Solid Roller cam and Lifters did you have in there when lifters came apart. Was it a Drag race cam roller, or street XE grind. If it was a Race roller than that's common. They aren't meant for street, as you are probably well aware. Just curious cause Big Joe says he's never had a failure with Comp XE street rollers or Comp's new Endurex lifters. Now a race roller profile won't last long on the street man.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
What kind of Solid Roller cam and Lifters did you have in there when lifters came apart. Was it a Drag race cam roller, or street XE grind. If it was a Race roller than that's common. They aren't meant for street, as you are probably well aware. Just curious cause Big Joe says he's never had a failure with Comp XE street rollers or Comp's new Endurex lifters. Now a race roller profile won't last long on the street man.

My primary focus was not the street-nearly all drag use. I run em' hard at the track.

It was a Bullet race cam with Comp Endurex lifters and Comp Gold rockers. Pretty sure the rocker died first and the lifters 2nd. It happend very quickly. No matter what, it was a mess. The lifters had nearly 650 drag strip runs--my fault in not sending them back to Comp to be rebuilt and for not replacing the rockers at an earlier interval. The springs were fairly recent.

Again, it can be costly to maintain SR's. Been there, done that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
My primary focus was not the street-nearly all drag use. I run em' hard at the track.

It was a Bullet race cam with Comp Endurex lifters and Comp Gold rockers. Pretty sure the rocker died first and the lifters 2nd. It happend very quickly. No matter what, it was a mess. The lifters had nearly 650 drag strip runs--my fault in not sending them back to Comp to be rebuilt and for not replacing the rockers at an earlier interval. The springs were fairly recent.

Again, it can be costly to maintain SR's. Been there, done that.

That explains it. Race roller profiles aren't designed to last a long time, even at the track only. Massive spring pressures and very aggressive ramp rates and profiles are hard as heck on lifters. Comp XE Solid Street roller will last much longer, but it's not a race cam. Although Comp Cams did tell me the XR292R Street Roller is borderline Drag cam with Street friendly profile. You should try it instead of Hyd. Big Joe said he's had more HYD cam failures than ever a Street solid roller failure.

After 650 passes you probably should of bought new ones. That's incredible they even lasted that long. I mean that's a lot of passes man, on same lifters. But maybe if you caught the Rocker first, the lifter wouldn't of went bad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
My primary focus was not the street-nearly all drag use. I run em' hard at the track.

It was a Bullet race cam with Comp Endurex lifters and Comp Gold rockers. Pretty sure the rocker died first and the lifters 2nd. It happend very quickly. No matter what, it was a mess. The lifters had nearly 650 drag strip runs--my fault in not sending them back to Comp to be rebuilt and for not replacing the rockers at an earlier interval. The springs were fairly recent.

Again, it can be costly to maintain SR's. Been there, done that.
Did you know the Rocker was going bad. Was it real loose, or did you hear something and ignore it. Still can't believe those lifters lasted 650 passes with a full race cam.

I run an Comp Cams Xtreme energy street solid roller XR292R on 112 LSA in my 393 Windsor with AFR 205 heads, Sup Vic intake, Eddy 800 carb with choke, and around 11:1 CR with 411 gears and 26inch tire, which actually makes em almost 430gears since i went to smaller tire. Made 480wheel through a C4 on 91 octane mixed with 100 octane. Adjust valves once a year, and some are spot on, and others are off just barely. Cam and Comp lifters have around 2300 miles on them. All hard street driving. This is in a 68 Mustang with ET street radial 275/50r15's out back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Did you know the Rocker was going bad. Was it real loose, or did you hear something and ignore it. Still can't believe those lifters lasted 650 passes with a full race cam.
I run open exhaust at the track. Earlier in the night the exhaust sounded a little funny, but I attributed it to a possible header leak as the collector doesn't fit well. It ran fine for a few runs but it wasn't until the shut down at the top end of the track that it was apparent that there was damage done. There was not indication for me to expect a possible rocker or lifter failure--of course open exhaust can hide small tell-tale sounds.

It is safe to say that the lifters lasted that long because I checked lash every 3rd race night as long as I used them. Idle was always set to 1100rpms and I ran synthetic lube. Cam was reasonably healthy with .714" lift and a spring rated at 745lbs. Lash barely changed after the initial setup and nothing seemed wrong.

Las was re-checked just a week or two before it died and there was nothing out of the ordinary. At that time I changed oil, did a compression check and deemed the motor to be healthy-it still had the same compression as when I built it. I fully expected everything to last until the end of the season.

If I were to do another SR, it would be with a more premium lifter-like an Isky or Crower needleless. They have been know to go well over 1000 runs and lots of street miles with radical cams. That was the plan until recent work developments.

The HR rollers will be link bars made by Moral-they are also pressure fed and have a decent reputation for reliability.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
I run open exhaust at the track. Earlier in the night the exhaust sounded a little funny, but I attributed it to a possible header leak as the collector doesn't fit well. It ran fine for a few runs but it wasn't until the shut down at the top end of the track that it was apparent that there was damage done. There was not indication for me to expect a possible rocker or lifter failure--of course open exhaust can hide small tell-tale sounds.

It is safe to say that the lifters lasted that long because I checked lash every 3rd race night as long as I used them. Idle was always set to 1100rpms and I ran synthetic lube. Cam was reasonably healthy with .714" lift and a spring rated at 745lbs. Lash barely changed after the initial setup and nothing seemed wrong.

Las was re-checked just a week or two before it died and there was nothing out of the ordinary. At that time I changed oil, did a compression check and deemed the motor to be healthy-it still had the same compression as when I built it. I fully expected everything to last until the end of the season.

If I were to do another SR, it would be with a more premium lifter-like an Isky or Crower needleless. They have been know to go well over 1000 runs and lots of street miles with radical cams. That was the plan until recent work developments.

The HR rollers will be link bars made by Moral-they are also pressure fed and have a decent reputation for reliability.

What lash did the Bullet race cam call for? Not sure how much better needle less are. I have heard of failures with those too. was that 745 open pressure, or seat pressure on valves. 714 lift and 745 spring pressure is a big drag race cam. You should of gone with the Comp Cams Elite solid roller lifters, and your motor would most likely be fine. The Elite rollers are designed for race cams with huge spring pressures, and made to last a long time. They run like $1000 though.

Comp Cams is a huge company, and they have millions of dollars in equipment to design the best parts possible. Crower and Isky are small companies, and in no way can fund the type of research and development Comps can for better and more durable designs. I like sticking with the bigger Company when it comes to parts, so COMP CAMS is my choice, and they have the money to back up their research and pay for the most advanced equipment available.

Not saying Isky and Crower aren't good, but they can't match Comp's research and development on parts cause they don't have the same size company. Isky and Crower are small companies, and most likely don't have the funds Comp Cams does.

But if you have heard of guys going 1000 passes and tons of street driving with Crower or Isky then more power too you. But ask yourself this one question, if needle less were the best lifters available, then why doesn't a billion dollar company like Comp Cams sell them. I mean Comp has the fund, and much better equipment then does either Crower or Isky, so why doesn't Comp use needle less.

I have been Told Shubeck makes the best Solid Roller lifter available, bar none. Uses a bushing and never fails, ever. At least that's what i have heard. What's your input on Shubeck's Lifters?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,786 Posts
All boils down to, "How fast do you want to go?" --- "How much money do you have?"

Irregardless of how you reach your goals that is gonna be one big mean hammer!!!:tup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,017 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
What lash did the Bullet race cam call for? Not sure how much better needle less are. I have heard of failures with those too. was that 745 open pressure, or seat pressure on valves. 714 lift and 745 spring pressure is a big drag race cam. You should of gone with the Comp Cams Elite solid roller lifters, and your motor would most likely be fine. The Elite rollers are designed for race cams with huge spring pressures, and made to last a long time. They run like $1000 though.

Comp Cams is a huge company, and they have millions of dollars in equipment to design the best parts possible. Crower and Isky are small companies, and in no way can fund the type of research and development Comps can for better and more durable designs. I like sticking with the bigger Company when it comes to parts, so COMP CAMS is my choice, and they have the money to back up their research and pay for the most advanced equipment available.

Not saying Isky and Crower aren't good, but they can't match Comp's research and development on parts cause they don't have the same size company. Isky and Crower are small companies, and most likely don't have the funds Comp Cams does.

But if you have heard of guys going 1000 passes and tons of street driving with Crower or Isky then more power too you. But ask yourself this one question, if needle less were the best lifters available, then why doesn't a billion dollar company like Comp Cams sell them. I mean Comp has the fund, and much better equipment then does either Crower or Isky, so why doesn't Comp use needle less.

I have been Told Shubeck makes the best Solid Roller lifter available, bar none. Uses a bushing and never fails, ever. At least that's what i have heard. What's your input on Shubeck's Lifters?
This is supposed to be a thread about how I am building my motor, not about why Comp Cams is supposedly the the best of everything valve train related. :rolleyes:

The 745 was open pressure and yes I know I had a race cam-.012 on the intake and .022 on the exhaust. I've readily admitted I made a mistake with using the Comp parts too long. I mentioned that it appeared that the Comp Gold Rocker (specifically needles of one of its roller bearings) failed first and then the Comp cast SR lifter went as it got to pound on the cam. A better steel body lifter might have held up longer with the abuse and thus been detectible-but who knows?

I am not down on Comp in general as they make/sell some decent stuff for the masses. That doesn't mean they make the best nor that I had their best stuff either. Like any big company, it comes down to making the most amount of money by saving a buck here or there. They have the biggest marketing machine out there for valvetrain parts. Needleless bearing SR lifters are a small market due to the initial expense of the purchase. Possibly too limited of a market for Comp to want to enter.

You do realize that Comp does not manufacture many of the parts that your backing? They buy and resell other's SFT lifters. They used to sell PAC springs (which is arguably one of the best), but now they moved on to a cheaper supplier. Do you think that they spend their $$ doing QC on other people's parts? Comp has had problems with what comes out of its doors too.

There are lots of small companies who's backgrounds and reputations are based on a solid racing foundation and they still are around and race today. They work with the racer when there is a problem, not sweep it under the table like its the racer's fault. They will work with you to find a solution, not give you a free set of lifters for your troubles.

Feel free to promote the Walmart of valvetrain parts if you wish, just as I will feel free to design my motor around whatever parts that I feel will meet my current and future needs. Some may be from Comp and some won't be.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
a good hydro roller is hard to beat now days.can make something very fast and still very easy on parts.

my hydro roller buzzes to 7500 with no issues and makes good power for a junkyard combo.pick the right parts in the right area and they are fine.hollow stem intake valves,short travel lifters and a good behive spring go a long way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
a good hydro roller is hard to beat now days.can make something very fast and still very easy on parts.

my hydro roller buzzes to 7500 with no issues and makes good power for a junkyard combo.pick the right parts in the right area and they are fine.hollow stem intake valves,short travel lifters and a good behive spring go a long way.

Hard to believe you have a Hyd that buzzes to 7500. You are risking serious valve float and major carnage man. And no way is any Hyd cam gonna make the same power as a Solid Roller. You just can't cause of design. If you want to last and have the best power for street strip, go with Comp XE street roller, otherwise your selling yourself short power wise, even Big Joe says this.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top