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It's running hot because the timing chain was slack which made your cam timing very retarded. Those little pieces look to be part of the original nylon timing set. If I were to pop off a timing cover and see missing teeth, the oil pan would come off without hesitation. That means whoever put on the current set did crappy work and if anything else was done to the engine, it probably wasn't done properly either.

Also looks like they didn't put thread lock on the cam retainer bolts because there's no way that fuel eccentric should be rubbing on your cover. That or they didn't get the cam gear all the way on.

Given that this engine has worn out two timing chains and obviously never had the oil pan off, I can say without a doubt that the bearings are shot and that's why you have low oil pressure. Oil pump could be pretty worn too. To wear out two timing chains this engine has likely 175k-200k on it at least.

No question it really needs a complete rebuild. Could it make it to Killeen with just the new timing set?... Probably, but run it with Valvoline 20/50 oil or 10/40 with a quart of Lucas. 20/50 is what I use here in the summer anyway. Once you get it here, a complete rebuild is a must or more problems will continue to pop up.

Don't let that dissuade you though. What some guys consider to be a "budget rebuild" entails exotic parts and $3,500. And those engines are less realistic as street engines. What I'm describing is a realistic engine that's basically stock, with only the essential upgrades (cam, intake, exhaust). This will make the engine much more powerful than stock and with better mileage. But isn't a 400 horsepower monster that makes a lowsy driver and sucks fuel. It is realistic budget-wise, street-wise, and skill-wise for most backyard wrench turners and will still have more power than most folks really want/need.

To me a quality budget rebuild including the machining and stock rebuild heads should be under $1,200. And that is with good Federal-Mogul and Comp parts not cheapy rebuilder junk. The only thing I don't do myself is the machining and that rarely costs me over $250 (sonic/magnaflux, bore/hone, deck, align bore), about $300 for a Federal-Mogul rebuild kit, $200 for a mild Comp cam/lifter kit, and about $350 for the heads rebuilt (I usually do this myself spending about $150-$175 on parts.)
This way, since you spent a little extra on the cam already, you can buy the carb/intake/headers as you can afford them without having to get back into the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Thanks for the insight Tex. I did buy a new oil pump and filter, and I dont believe there was any thread lock on the cam retaining bolt, at least not that I saw.

I do want to do a rebuild...and before it starts eating up my new parts. As far as what I want to do with it - it will still be a daily driver. Just a fun truck with a little rumble under the hood.
 

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Then a stock rebuild with a mild Comp or Crane cam (256 or 262) will be perfect for you. Then later on when you have more cash and if you want more power, you'll be all set for the 4 bbl induction and headers.

Keep us updated and post if you have any problems with the timing set install.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Finally got the new timing set in. I put it in then realized that I only set it to stock timing and didn't set the cam dot to the correct mark on the crank sprocket (I lined up the cam sprocket to the triangle). So I called Comp Cams to double check that I had it wrong and then pulled the cover off again and set the cam dot to the correct mark (the o)

So now it's back together with a new timing set, water pump, thermostat, fuel pump and oil pump/sender.

One thing this truck had was that the spark plug wires were moved one port clockwise on the dizzy cap. After not getting a cylinder firing while starting it, I checked the rotor and it was back to the stock #1 contact on the cap! I adjusted the wired back to stock and now I get a couple pops but the motor still won't catch. A strong fuel smell makes me think it may be flooded so I hung it up for the night.

Any ideas as to what else it may be?
 

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Oh man! You had it right the first time. The triangle is what you wanted as that is the 4* advance. The O means 0*. Leaving it at that setting still leaves you with a severely retarded camshaft and you haven't accomplished anything.

What Comp told you is right only if you are using one of their new camshafts which have the advance built in. With the stock cam you have to use the 4* advance the triangle on the timing set gives you.
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Oh man! You had it right the first time. The triangle is what you wanted as that is the 4* advance. The O means 0*. Leaving it at that setting still leaves you with a severely retarded camshaft and you haven't accomplished anything.

What Comp told you is right only if you are using one of their new camshafts which have the advance built in. With the stock cam you have to use the 4* advance the triangle on the timing set gives you.
Ok lemme explain a little better:

I set the crank key in the slot with the triangle and I never changed that.
What I initially did was line up the cam dot with the triangle (and the crank key) which just left me with the stock timing. I then went back and all I did was unchain the cam and rotated the crank till the 0 mark on the crank sprocket was lined up with the dot on the cam sprocket, thus, the crank key wasn't lined up with the cam dot and that gives me the 4* of advance.

Correct?

If not, what slot should the crank key be lined up with and what mark should the cam dot be lined up with?
 

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The crank key should always be nearly lined up with the cam sprocket marker. The triangle is what you should have line up with. By putting the triangle on the key (which is correct) then rotating around to line up with the O marker, your cam is now 120* off. That's why your engine won't fire. Hopefully you haven't smashed any valves with the pistons. Did you rotate the engine by hand before you started it to see if there was any place it felt like things hit.

If you look at the 3 different keyways on the the crank sprocket, you will see that the O is right under a tooth, the triangle is slightly offset from being right under a tooth. That slight offset is your 4*.
 

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Discussion Starter #28 (Edited)
The crank key should always be nearly lined up with the cam sprocket marker. The triangle is what you should have line up with. By putting the triangle on the key (which is correct) then rotating around to line up with the O marker, your cam is now 120* off. That's why your engine won't fire. Hopefully you haven't smashed any valves with the pistons. Did you rotate the engine by hand before you started it to see if there was any place it felt like things hit.

If you look at the 3 different keyways on the the crank sprocket, you will see that the O is right under a tooth, the triangle is slightly offset from being right under a tooth. That slight offset is your 4*.
Thanks. Just goes to show that it pays to fully understand the directions before you do anything.

Doh!

Once I get it fixed, how can I tell if I messed up a valve or something from it being so far out of time?
 

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If you kissed the valves then you'll likely know pretty much when it fires off...

Misfiring and popping through the carb etc... Like the valves are out of adjustment.

Before firing you can blow air into each plug hole at TDC and if you hear air whistling out the pipes or up into the intake then you got issues.

A compression check prior to starting will show something is amiss too usually.
 

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Yeah man, I should have given you more explicit instructions. I've just done this so many times I take some knowledge for granted. That's one of the problems with guiding someone through a process via internet. It's hard to know everyone's background and experience. I should have been more step-by-step instead of just saying "install the timing set 4* advance."

And calling Comp was a smart move on your part since you knew what you didn't know and sought advice from the manufacturer. Only problem is, they always recommend the O setting for two reasons. 1. If it's one of their new cams (which they often assume) then it's already set with 106* for the O setting. 2. If they recommend the stock O setting (even if it is a lousy 109* or other retarded spec) they know it's a safe setting and no valves will hit anything. Either way their butts are covered. The way they see it, changing ANY cam's timing is a risk assumed by the installer. They will give you the means to do it, but that's were their participation stops.

And true, if you are advancing a cam in an unknown setup, ALWAYS, ALWAYS degree in the cam just like the instructions say. But since this is a setup I've done numerous times (and I did degree it in the first few times) I know it's not only safe but effective. That's why I said just bolt in and line up with the 4* advance. Hopefully no valves were "kissed" as FE so eloquently put it. But in the event that some were, well, seeing that the engine is in dire need of a complete rebuild, those valves and pistons were not long for this world anyway. Maybe it's a good this you tried this mod on a worn engine instead of a freshly machined one. You made a mistake, you learned, and you didn't ruin any new or expensive parts. Just keep in mind, that key in the crank snout is always what you go by when positioning the crank. It might be 4* right or 4* left (depending on the sprocket keyway) but it will always near the 12:00 position when the cam is at 6:00.

But let's hope nothing was harmed and that engine can putt it's way to Killeen. Wish Fort Hood was closer so I could give you a hand, but it's a good two hours from Fort Worth.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Yeah man, I should have given you more explicit instructions. I've just done this so many times I take some knowledge for granted. That's one of the problems with guiding someone through a process via internet. It's hard to know everyone's background and experience. I should have been more step-by-step instead of just saying "install the timing set 4* advance."

And calling Comp was a smart move on your part since you knew what you didn't know and sought advice from the manufacturer. Only problem is, they always recommend the O setting for two reasons. 1. If it's one of their new cams (which they often assume) then it's already set with 106* for the O setting. 2. If they recommend the stock O setting (even if it is a lousy 109* or other retarded spec) they know it's a safe setting and no valves will hit anything. Either way their butts are covered. The way they see it, changing ANY cam's timing is a risk assumed by the installer. They will give you the means to do it, but that's were their participation stops.

And true, if you are advancing a cam in an unknown setup, ALWAYS, ALWAYS degree in the cam just like the instructions say. But since this is a setup I've done numerous times (and I did degree it in the first few times) I know it's not only safe but effective. That's why I said just bolt in and line up with the 4* advance. Hopefully no valves were "kissed" as FE so eloquently put it. But in the event that some were, well, seeing that the engine is in dire need of a complete rebuild, those valves and pistons were not long for this world anyway. Maybe it's a good this you tried this mod on a worn engine instead of a freshly machined one. You made a mistake, you learned, and you didn't ruin any new or expensive parts. Just keep in mind, that key in the crank snout is always what you go by when positioning the crank. It might be 4* right or 4* left (depending on the sprocket keyway) but it will always near the 12:00 position when the cam is at 6:00.

But let's hope nothing was harmed and that engine can putt it's way to Killeen. Wish Fort Hood was closer so I could give you a hand, but it's a good two hours from Fort Worth.

No worries. I got it put back on right, and in the morning I'll start putting it back together. I should check the valve adjustment anyway...but I've been scared to pop the covers off and see how the seals look.

I'm sure I'll be up your way for a show or meet once I get to Killeen. My truck is a hard one to miss.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Update:

Got the timing chain in and all put back together. The motor runs better but idles very low and is harder to start. Also, what should I set the advance to with the dizzy?
 

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Idle should be about 600-800 when in drive. What do you mean by harder to start? Does it kick back? Or do you have to crank it a lot?

An initial distributor timing of 8* or 10* is a good place to start. Here's a cut a paste of my distributor timing procedure as I explained it to someone in the "Trouble with my 429" thread a few weeks ago:

"Index setting should just be regarded as a starting point, proper dist timing takes a little more fine tuning. Loosen the dist hold-down bolt just enough to allow the dist to turn. Turn the dist slightly CW (advance). The engine should speed up a little. Tighten the hold-down and test drive it. Is the engine more responsive? Does it clatter under acceleration? If it clatters it's advanced too far and you must back off CCW (retard). If there was no clatter, try a little more advance. Test again. Did this improve power and idle? Generally, the more advance you can run without clattering (detonation) the more power, smoother, and cooler the engine will run. Better mileage too. But don't advance to the point of clatter because that will destroy your pistons. Now you can hook the adv vac back to the signal port on the carb. Test drive again to make sure your total advance (mechanical and vacuum) is not too much. If you do get clattering under acceleration (which you shouldn't if the advance unit is working properly), back off the timing a little at a time until it stops."

Keep in mind now that you've solved the slack timing problem, it might make other problems more evident since you're dealing with a worn engine. But hopefully it will run well enough that you can enjoy it some before the rebuild and make the Texas trip on it's own power.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
It seems that it idles fine for about a minute when stopped, then the idle speed drops and the engine dies - unless I rev it and the process seems to start again.

I do have to crank it alot, and there is a bit of kickback.
 

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If there is a kickback on the starter, back off the timing just a hair. If it idles fine for a while and then tries to die, that sounds more like a carb problem. With a timing problem it won't idle fine at all. What do you have the idle mixture needles set at?

Even if the carb seemed okay before, it's getting a different signal now that the valve timing is in a better place. There are very few thing you can do to an engine that doesn't affect the carb in some way. It might be your next weak link. Like I said, now that the timing and cam are where they should be, other maladjustments will likely be exposed.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Well the pros are that the truck runs much, much smoother and doesn't labor to get to highway speed. I also notice more power that rocks the truck when I rev it - seems the motor wants to jump out of the truck now.

One thing that has me confused is that the truck will occasionally die at stops now. when I stop the truck will idle for about 30 seconds then the RPMs will drop and the motor will sputter and die unless I throw it in park and gas it back to life. It doesn't do it all the time, but often.
 

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Great, glad the better cam position has you making more power. The dying after it idles a while likely has to do with the idle circuit of your carb, or perhaps a vacuum leak. How's your PCV system?
 
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