Hmmm, id defiantly recheck the plug your talking about. If its coming out you could have disastrous engine failure if its pops out. Now about those cork seals. They are the biggest waste of time. I even tried the explorer silicone seals. I thought i was going to break the manifold cause it didn't want to conform to my mismatched heads ('68 302 decked) , manifold (new Edelbrock rpm air gap), block (NEW 302 roller,) combo.

If your plug has slipped then stake it down with a chisel in 4 places 90deg apart.

Then scrape all the cement off, brake clean all the mating surfaces, fill the trash with those cork pieces, and then run a nice FAT bead of ultra blue, ultra grey, etc along the front and back. just after it "skins" @ 15 20 min, place the manifold down, then torque it.

If that doesnt clear up the leaks then sad to say that sounds like those ultra seals might be the issue. Im not sure if they are a multi layer gasket like the comectics. If they are then thats your big problem right there. Go to a regular ol felpro blue or ford motorsport graphite type gasket. The multi layer type gasket needs a "lapped" smooth surface not to far off of the finish of a mirror. Typical head/block surfacing machines give a nice surface but not nice enough for the sealing that multi-layer gaskets need.

Good luck on that , leaks on a new engine are a big let down.

 

It kinda looks like we have a double post going here....Is this the same dogleg that you are talking about?..I was running cometic steel headgaskets and possibly didn't have a good seal in this area.

 

This is another potential leak spot if the headgaskets are a hair short of coming right up to the top..In my case the oil would leak without the motor running so I don't think this was my problem.

 

Forget about using those POS gaskets on the front and back of the block to seal the intake. Use a thick stream of the black RTV gasket maker all the way across on the front and back. Overlap it about a 1/4" on each side where the intake gaskets are. I usually take 4 studs and screw into each corner of my heads for the intake to evenly lower down onto. Works great, hope this wasn't too confusing.

 

As per post 4 ,since you used the corks i hope you squeezed a good blob of silicon /RTV sealer in the corners circled in the pic before gluing the corks down...

 

Check out Frdnut's 2nd picture as I found my Felpro 1011-2 also fell a little short in the circled area.

I've used RTV on the intake ends multiple times and it works good if you get enough on. After reading about all the praises of using Permatex's "Right Stuff" I decided to spring for a can. It comes in a aerosol container and you pull a little lever and it comes out. It made a very nice bead on my block's intake sealing rails. This stuff is super sticky and there is no doubt that it will bond to anything that it touches!!!! I am impressed enough to use it on my future builds.

If the plug was missing under the intake, there would be more oil for the lifters and such to toss around. This 3/4" plug blocks a key oil pump passage. How is your oil pressure? If this plug is missing it will be very low most of the time and practically non-existent at idle.

I didn't see a mention of a valve cover leak. I've found that most of my upper end leaks occur there and the oil can end up almost anywhere on the motor. Don't overlook this possibly simple fix.

 

I didn't see a mention of a valve cover leak. I've found that most of my upper end leaks occur there and the oil can end up almost anywhere on the motor. Don't overlook this possibly simple fix.

x2, I'd double check the cover gaskets. I had the same type issue, it was the gaskets not sealing correctly.

 

Diddo on Ford Nuts Posting....

Check the intake manifold rear cork gasket. The rear lifter gallery oil seal.

If it is a slim leak there, it will seep around your head, through the crack bewteen the block and the head, and making it look like your head is leaking.

 

Thanks for the replies, most of the diagnosis here indicate that the manfold is leaking at the head/block/manifold junction at the back. I will get a dental mirror and look back there to be sure.

I can't imagine that the drain back hole is leaking as per frdnut's pic it shows the holes drilled toward the center of the head with the dog leg going outward to line up with the stock drain back hole in the block.

I also can't imagine the rear of the intake leaking when pressure lubing the engine. What pressurized passage is near the intake corner? The only one I can think of is the 3/4" plug at the top of the block.

Here is what I will do:

1) Re torque the manifold to 18 ft lbs. Currently it has 12-13 ft lbs on all bolts.

2) If the above doesn't work, I will pull the manifold then replace all gaskets, replace the 3/4" oil galley plug if it moved, and use the Permatex right stuff gasket maker for the end seals, then torque to 18 ft lbs.



3) If all of that doesn't work, I will have to look at the cylinder head gaskets and use what Edelbrock recommended, the Fel Pro 9333 which is an economy gasket. That Gasket is .047 thick and my nice .035 quench will go to .044. Fel pro 1011-1 and 1011-2 are .039-.041 thick which are ok. The MR. Gasket Ultraseal is .038 thick.



Like HotrodPinot said the MLS gaskets are for shiny finished surfaces. The block was decked, but the surface was still rough enough to cause lint from a paper towel rubbing on it. I cleaned both block and head surfaces with carb cleaner before installing the gaskets.

This is a let down, especially after driving it around the block a few times. The car is very fast, and I want to drive it, not fix it again!!

 

Kind of an update on the oil leak.

I checked the intake again, and it had only 3-4 ft lbs on the bolts! I had to torque them 6 times to get them to stay at 18.5 ft lbs. I ran the car for an hour, then shut it off. I got no more oil coming down the rear of the heads pooling on the block casting - BUT - I got several large drops from the bell housing area.

Thinking it might be the rear main seal i pulled out the starter and the spacer plate bolts and pried up the plate to peek into the bell housing. The rear main was super clean and dry. No oil anywhere in there, not on the back of the block, seal, clutch, starter, anywhere!

I pulled the two larger 1/2" oil pan bolts neares the seal to see if there was any oil on top of them which would indicate a plug leaking in the back of the block. Both bolt tops were clean and dry, and nothing leaked when I took out the bolts. All oil pan bolts were tight as well.

From under the car with it lifted, I can see that oil flowed down both sides of the block at the block/head junction, then flowed down to the flat underside of the block and went towards the center crankshaft area, traveling along the bellhousing to block seam.

The oil then flowed down the rear seal area and onto the inspection plate finally pooling then dripping off of the bottom of the bellhousing/plate area. No oil was on the backside of the inspection plate or inside of the lower bell housing, only the front of the plate nearest the oil pan.

I kept flushing the area with alcohol and carb spray, but apparently, there was a lot of oil in those seams. I will run the car again tomorrow or Sunday to see if i fixed the leak. Thanks for the info!

 

We have our fingers crossed for you!!!! We are glad to get the feedback.

The leak you describe is normally associated with the intake or the valve covers--often it is very hard to find. Often you can clean the motor off, dry it good, and then sprinkle baby powder on it to see where the moisture begins.

Luckily you may have already solved your problem!!!!

 

My oil leak was doing the same thing..It was running off the back of the head and down the side of the scattershield..Then it would go across the bottom rear edge of the block and down the front of the engine plate looking exactly like a rear main leak...It was very hard to follow the trail with the engine in the car and the header tubes in the sight path.

 

If the plug was missing under the intake, there would be more oil for the lifters and such to toss around. This 3/4" plug blocks a key oil pump passage. How is your oil pressure? If this plug is missing it will be very low most of the time and practically non-existent at idle.

Denis111, do you have a pic or exact location of that 3/4" plug under the manifold you spoke of? Thanks in advance.
​

 

Latest update:

THIS SUCKS-- I spent all this money on the car, new parts, etc. and I can't fix the leak........ $4,000 in the motor alone and I can't drive it.


I torqued the heads back down to 63 lower 67 upper with the ARP Assembly lube. Mr Gasket Ultraseal steel shim gaskets .038"

I torqued the intake to 18.5 ft lbs. I used Permatex 1A Hardening sealer on the gasket ends when I put it together on the stand three weeks ago. I used the manifold engine lift to put it in the car, twice.

I started it up today and after running it for 10 minutes it was leaking again.



I have the manifold off of it right now in the garage and I don't see where it could have leaked around the end gaskets. I dimpled both the block and manifold before laying the Permatex contact cement on there. I basically used super glue to assure the gaskets didn't move. They did not move. I had to pry the intake up with a tire iron to get it to detach. I even used 4 studs on the intake as part of the assembly.

With the dentist's mirror, I can see a very thin film of oil at the upper part of the head gasket (thin part) where it rides up the block above the upper head bolt. This is the skinny section where it comes up to the lifter valley top. I wonder if the head isn't clamping this area enough to seal the gasket in there. Funny, the front of the engine has no leaks at all.

The gaskets come up all the way to the top of the junction and stick out about 2-3mm into the junction. I am beginning to wonder if the gaskets simply are not clamped enough to stop the seepage here.

I put the preluber dizzy back in and spun the hell out of it. The 3/4" plug is tight and does not leak. I will go out and clean the area again and see if it leaks. I am almost tempted to take the heads off and try different gaskets, like the Fel Pro 1011-2.

Is ARP full of **** when they say torque to only 63 ft lbs with their lube??? I took it to 67 and am worried to take them farther as I used their "lube".

I will let you all know how this ends up. Thanks for listening.



Valley firearms, the plug is in the pic on the first page, we were referring to the small 3/4" at the top of the block at the rear.

 

Sorry to hear about the problems. I had the same thing when I used cometics. It was the oil passage that was leaking on mine. You wouldn't think it would leak due to it not being under pressure other than crank case pressure. In my case, I was hoping it was the manifold. I ended up switching to Fel Pros.

 

Sorry to hear all of this man. Sucks.

Well sounds like id just bite the bullet and buy some more conventional head gaskets. These just aint working for you it seems. What ever you do, dont over torque those arp fasteners. The torque specs are there because you used thier moly lube. Remember the torque that you put on a bolt has 2 or 3 things to do; overcome friction, twist, and compress the head. With the friction taken care of (reletavily) more force is actually compressing the head than with 75ft lbs on stock bolts with oil.

Anyways id bet if you had some more normal head gaskets and as stated MANY times, throw the end seals away and use the big bead of ultra blue, gray, or better, along the end sealing areas, then your sealing issues should go away.
Good luck and sorry for your troubles.

 

Thanks guys, you know what they say, "you gotta pay to play..." I've built two other 302's before without the diligence, care, cost, and attention to detail that I put into this motor. This was supposed to be --the-- motor!

I did manage to drive it for about an hour, and the combo hauls butt!! I am totally satisfied with the performance, just bummed about the leak.

I am agreeing with you guys that I should try new gaskets, more conventional ones as in 1011-2's. At .039" I would keep my nice quench of .035"..

Valley, I originally thought that the oil drainbacks were off when I first saw the leaks. BTW, both sides leak now the same amount in the same place. We may have found the problem here. I don't know what prompted me to go with the ultraseals, other than they were .038" compressed and I was looking for the tightest quench I could go.


I will take the heads off and replace them with the Fel Pro's and we will see where it is at.. . BTW, the ultraseals do not have any of the silicone beading on them like the Fel Pro's do. They were flat exposed wire on one side, and white dimpled plastic on the other.

The only other thing that causes concern is that the oil drainback hole in the Ebrock heads is an oval shape. How is the round gasket going to seal an oval hole?

 

Thats awsome to hear that it kicks ass!

lets see some pics and specs of the engine etc!

 

Update:

Tore the heads off, replaced the Mr Gasket ultraseals (ultraleaks) with Fel Pro 1011-2's.

After taking off the ultraseals, they looked bad, like they have been on the car for 20 years?! The steel parts corroded with small white dots and brown rusty discolorations. Parts of the gasket looked like it didn't compress, as the thickness was 0.045 in most areas. They advertised .038 compressed.

I couldn't tell if the oil drain backs were leaking to the outside or not. It almost seemed as if it were leaking along the area between the upper head bolt and the manifold junction, where the skinny part of the block is.

I installed the Fel Pros this time like this:

Cleaned both block and heads with carb cleaner, got all of the old intake cork stuff and glue off.

"Front means Front" -- Laid the gaskets correctly

New dowel pins

Torqued 15, 30, 45, then 60 ft. lbs. on all bolts

Then per fel pro instructions, torqued the uppers to 68 ft lbs.

Fel pro said in their instructions to torque to 70 lower then 80 upper. ARP fastener says that their moly lube reduced torque requirements by 15%. That is where I got 59.5 (60) and 68.

Put the intake gaskets on, used Permatex orange around the water jackets only. Used Permatex "right stuff" gasket maker in the can for the end beads, nice thick 1/4" beads with plenty in the corners.

Torqued the intake to 17 all bolts, about 8 times before they would hold, then torqued the inner 8 bolts to 20 as per Weiand instructions. (8020).

I still have to hook the H pipe back up to the headers and install the dizzy and carb. Keep you all posted.

 

Sounds like you got the right stuff this time!
Hope everything holds well!


FE

 

Update:

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy!!!!

I took it for the maiden voyage with the new fel pro 1011-2's in it, a Weiand stealth 8020 and Permatex right stuff gasket sealer on the ends.


NO LEAKS!!! fluid leaks that is....


I did reuse the old header gaskets, and I have a small tick up front at the headers. More 1415's on the way for that.... no biggie right now.

Lesson learned: NO MLS gaskets with these motors unless the surface is super mirror finish. This should be a sticky for all to see if they are building a motor or replacing head gaskets. I didn't know any better, maybe my trouble can help someone out in the future..


For those wondering about the combo I put together:

86 Roller block from original car
.030" over
Keith Black Forged 719 pistons 4.8cc flat top 2 reliefs
Floating pins
Hastings plasma moly rings
Eagle SIR chinese rods
Clevite bearings
9.55:1 static
.035" quench

Edelbrock RPM heads 1.9/1.6
Harland Sharp rollers 1.6 ratio
Weiand 8020 Stealth
Carter performance 625 AFB 68x42 rods, orange springs, 100 mains 95 secondaries

Iskenderian Cam, 257/265 210/218 at .050" .480/.500 112LS
stock roller lifters
Chebby 2.8L V6 pushrods at 6.163" long.

MSD 6A
MSD Blaster coil
FMS wires
Stock 85 distributor with steel gear, stock curve and vacuum advance for now, 5* BTDC (not dialed in yet)

All 3/8" fuel line, Carter street/strip pump 6psi

Ceramic headers, H pipe, Dynomax 2 1/2" tubing

 

Sweeeet. Go out and bang some gears.

 

I reinstalled the heads on my motor using 1011-2s as well...I have ran my oil pump with the drill for about 10 minutes on and off...Last year this would have resulted in a puddle of oil off of the drivers side rear of the head...So far it has been dry and no sign of leaks.....Now I just have to put the intake on and try it with the engine actually running but so far so good!

 

Valley, I know you had the problem with the cometics on your motor then switched them out with no further issues. Was the cometic an Multi layered steel?


FrdNut-- Awesome to hear it is not leaking, post a follow up when you get it running!!

 

Thats Just AWESOME!! Sorry you went through that crap.

If ever anyone really needs the MLS gaskets like the ultra leaks or the cometics then you have to plan WAY before you get to the head installation. Dont forget that you need to have the BLOCK deck surfaced to the same Smooth finish as well. But after all is said and done it could be the best seal for turbocharged/supercharged installs that are pushing the limits for 4 head bolts per Cylinder.

BTW, I never new you could get ceramic headers... Must be real fragile!
HAHAHAHA JK!!

 

Adding on to this one from UK side. Ive just had a water leak to oil on my dyno session yesterday. Tearing the motor down I found no evidence in the manifold to valley seal but my Mr Gasket 5807's looked very nasty after only cam break in and 6 pulls on the dyno!

Water everywhere under the gasket where it could have only gotten through pressure when running. Might explain why the oil got progressively worse. Going for 1011-2's now!