I think that the people that are involved with the build up are on a learning curve just as the owner is. Look at a Reher and Morrison ad, their lowest horsepower engine makes 800 horsepower with a single carb. This didn't happen overnight. It took years of testing to get that amount of power from a 502 cube engine.
I wonder how much power this engine would make if John Kaase had been in on it?
I'm not knocking the people involved either. Thats one hell of a project!
I wouldnt pretend for a minute to be a pro engine builder/tuner. But compared to other build ups Ive seen....anyways Im sure they will get it sorted out. I can only dream of ever getting to play like that...very cool ford stuff
The dyno pulls identified two problems. One was a known.
The heads are on the small side. I built this engine on USAF Master Sargent pay supplemented by some Auto Zone part time money.
When I was getting parts for this engine, ford had discontinued the A heads. Would have been the head of choice, but I couldn’t wait around for one of the few at the time ford bracket racers to sell out. That left the C heads, $3000.00 bare, $1500.00 in porting, they are unfinished, there is no run them out the box. As well as $3000.00 for the Jessel shaft rocker system. $7500.00 was out of the budget.
The Blue Thunders out flowed the aluminum Cobra Jets I had, and would do so no matter what I did to the Cobra Jets.
So I bought the Blue Thunders. At this time it was also still fathomed that this would go on a stock block and I would drive it on the street. Target Hp was about 750hp.
Well with the head flow, and a medium cam we estimated exceeding the 750hp easily. So the big dollar bottom end parts were purchased.
The second area that the article does mention is these heads threw Ed. The flow numbers as I gave them to him off a superflow 6000 put them in line with some big chiefs. So the cam was designed similar to what that engine liked. Something about the port shape, the combustion chamber shape, something made this thing a torque animal and peak really early. It peaked on the dyno at 6600 RPM. BSFC was raising from 6700 on up. It only dropped about 100 hp all the way up to 7500 RPM.
All the dyno pulls started at 5300 RPM or so, so there never was a torque peak loaded. Projecting the curves back... Real scientific but it looks like torque peak is at about 3000 RPM, and is right about 900ft lbs.
Anyhow to shorten it up, the new cam is ordered, 325 advertised nearly 300 at .050 Some real steep ramps with some real square lobes. Should give me another 1000 RPM on the peak power and should put this little back yard project at 1000hp NA, even with the small heads.
As much as I would love Top Fuel numbers, Pro-stock cars are running 18-1 to 20-1 compression, have years of R&D, and LEASE for 3 times my investment costs, and make about 400 HP more than I will NA.
I’ve still got 500+hp of N2O to go, and if it don’t get me there quick enough, Ill add another stage. Nice thing about being a nobody… I only have to make myself happy.
Have to add an adendum to this, the prices above are actually for E heads. I didnt have an old catalogue available. C heads actually list for $750.00 a piece bare. Jessel rockers are still going to come in at about $1500.00 and your going to put a fair amount of money into tweaking those ports. So really figure about $4500.00 for a nice set of C heads.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kim on 3/19/02 12:29pm ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kim on 3/24/02 1:30pm ]</font>
Still working the bugs out, but hopefully with a follow up article or two, it inspires one or two people to chase a wild dream.
Cant say its been free, but I can say I did it. There are people that will build similar or perhaps even more HP combinations with less costly parts. This will be my race engine for a long time to come. So the investment was made to put quality in, and then ensure I change bearings and springs regularly. SO long as I dont neglect anything, I should be able to race this for many years.
Im not planning on taking on any big names, just having a lot of fun scaring myself.
I have reread the article several times, and I have to give a lot of credit to Chirag. He took the usual racer vaugness and turned into a pretty interesting read. At least from my stand point anyhow. With a little luck, after we put it on the dyno in a month or so and shoot the N2O itll add that much more to the story.
The real "final story" is once its in the car, I have my license, and it makes a pass in full force.... Of course that adds the chasis set up to the whole problem... but that can be a whole other story.
You know what's sad about all this? I have been trying to convince people for 10 years that BT's can make serious horsepower. I make 750 with a .700 lift short duration cam. Everyone is really running down the BT's. This is by far the best thing I've seen as far as good performance built with good sense, dollar wise. Glad to see you get your car done. Maybe you'll be close enough to Oklahoma I can come see ya sometime!
In bang for the buck, you cant beat them. Espeacially for someone dealing with a stock bore. I was told by several that Ill never get a 1000hp out of them either. SO its rather a goal just to say I did. Surest way to make me do something is tell me I am not able to do it.
Kim, you need to check this out. I have tried to tell these people that BT's are the best bang for the buck around, they swear by CJ's, I swear at them... as I throw rocks at 'em. I posted a link for the dyno test on your car & we'll just say they weren't too nice. I sure don't see them even coming close to the 820 you made or the 750 I make in my 466. Have a look http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=85220&messageid=1016858446
All the guys with the big bucks. I guess I missed the silver spoon.
Anyhow, I see several guys quoting owning or buying C heads. I hope they realize your not going to bolt them on a .060 over stock block. That is where the Blue Thunder heads shine.
If I KNEW before I bought the heads I was going to be into a motorsport block I would have probably put off for the C or E head.
I dont know, as I said, Im happy to share (maybe brag a little) on what Ive done. I am not going to defend it everytime someone says John Kassee or Billy Glidden could have done better.
Yup they could... I did this in a little shed, on a very limited budget. The big thing is, I did this, Billy Glidden, John Kassee etc werent there, just me.
Oh and one other little thing, the guy commenting about not being able to use the BIG cam, the cam was too small, BSFC was climbing after 6700 RPM, the cam was not venting enough exhaust. The new cam is bigger, to open up the RPM envelope.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kim on 3/24/02 9:29am ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kim on 3/25/02 2:03am ]</font>
Welcome to the board. I hope that my reply above wasn't taken wrong. I guess that I'm trying to say that when someone starts a new adventure ya gotta try different things to arrive at your goal. I for one am impressed with your engine.
Kim welcome to the board and I too am impressed. Congrats on your efforts, I'm not rich either and appreciate the sacrifice to build something like that. Also congrats for the AF, my son is in San Antonio right now doing his boot camp.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Paxtonman on 3/24/02 11:11am ]</font>
I understand you Kim, the guys on a lot of these forums really like to flame people. It's getting old defending myself as well. One things for sure, I don't see them in mags. Maybe I should spend more time in the head shop than on the net. I look forward to your next dyno session!
Kim, the way I see it, anybody that can get over 800 horses out of anything without nitrous is cool in my book. Good work, good article. Besides, most of us would soil our shorts if we ever drove anything with that kind of horsepower! ('course, I guess a feller could always buy more shorts!
lol, Its a no win situation. I do not propose that this is by any means the only way to make HP. It is one way, and its great that it sparked conversation here, as well as several other forums. I have read a couple people that expressed similar sentiments, not bashing, but proposing how they could/would do it better. That is fine, I am the very very first person to admit, the combination is rather like racing in a stock class. The heads are a limiting factor.
Several people have used the article/achievements to show that there are HP (head) options out there that some people were refusing to see.
I guess I have a "defensive" mode as well as most people. Sometimes the way we read the words written they either come through as a. how to do it better comment, or a Kim was a moron comment. I find myself wanting to get in and defend the combination, yet, I myself pointed out the mistakes, and have already taken corrective action.
Ed says the new cam will add about 90hp. That will put the NA figure at 950hp, a little short of the 1000 target, but... ED is a conservative estimator. With a little luck, itll sneak a few closer. Ed also ships stuff with operation in mind versus dyno numbers. Sure 1200hp would sell some people but if it has no curve, it wont race.
This combination would race well, from 5300 to 7500 there is a 120hp fluctuation. It starts at 780 and dies at 750. The thing would be a monster as is, but who doesnt want a little more?
wow...well I never intended to slam anyone when I started this thread. I hope no one takes it in that way. I guess I just thought the engine combo would be good for more hp then it went on that day in that article. It must be much tuffer then it seems to build radical combos out on the ragged edge. Its a lesson reality. I hope it works out for you Kim....dont let the negative things keep you from having fun with it
I admire your gusto and patience. I am new to this ford 385 family and am building my first with what I have learned since finding this forum. I will be waiting to read of your next step up, take care and keep on keepin on.