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Discussion Starter #1
I was wondering if anyone had insights into using propane to build a radical street engine. With the high octane rating of propane you could run big compression/big cam combo on the street for pretty cheap... then spray the crap out of it.

I was thinking of a high revving 289 running 12-1 comp, then spraying away on top of that... Either gasoline injected or lpg to keep things from leaning out.

drive it to the track, and around town and affordable gas too!
 

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Not sure about propane and Nos but I've always wanted to do a turbo propane setup on a 300 I6.

On a somewhat similar note, someone was tellin me that shooting propane into a diesel motor is like nos on a gas motor. Anyone know anything about this? Is it true?


PS. Sorry if I hijacked your thread
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not sure about propane and Nos but I've always wanted to do a turbo propane setup on a 300 I6.

On a somewhat similar note, someone was tellin me that shooting propane into a diesel motor is like nos on a gas motor. Anyone know anything about this? Is it true?


PS. Sorry if I hijacked your thread
I heard that too, but I think they inject both at the same time.

I know it is do-able, I saw it on several websites and videos, you just have to be careful to get the A/F mix right.
 

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I'm not an expert in this area but my understanding is that propane has less energy per volume needed (or something along that line) so it would have to run pretty rich, meaning it's not very efficient. In other words it would burn a lot more to make the same power as gasoline.

I don't think I'm talking out of my butt, so please correct me if I'm way off base on this.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I'm not an expert in this area but my understanding is that propane has less energy per volume needed (or something along that line) so it would have to run pretty rich, meaning it's not very efficient. In other words it would burn a lot more to make the same power as gasoline.

I don't think I'm talking out of my butt, so please correct me if I'm way off base on this.

John
No, I believe you are correct on this. However, even if you need twice as much fuel, at $1.50 a gallon, you are still ahead of the game (esp on a high octaine fuel).
 

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True, LP has less energy than gasoline, but you can't just burn more. The energy available is about 15% less with the same amount of air available. So, you're going to see a hit in power (even with compression increase) unless you can increase the amount of air being pumped through eh engine. There are two ways to look at this. Increase your engine's efficiency for more power with any traditional improvements (heads, headers, etc.) to get the 15% loss back, or improve the amount of air pumped at the current efficiency, such as turbocharging, supercharging, etc. Both viewpoints increase the total available air to burn with the fuel, allowing more LP to be burned. This is why gasoline has been king for 100 years, and alternative fuels are a hard sell, as the cost/energy ratio just isn't there, and a loss in available power to boot.

David
 

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I antique tractor pull and I've seen guys inject diesels with propane and yes its like a 100 shot of NOS! While pulling I've seen guys hit the propane and the tractor does an instant wheelie! Makes a hug difference on older diesels anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
True, LP has less energy than gasoline, but you can't just burn more. The energy available is about 15% less with the same amount of air available. So, you're going to see a hit in power (even with compression increase) unless you can increase the amount of air being pumped through eh engine. There are two ways to look at this. Increase your engine's efficiency for more power with any traditional improvements (heads, headers, etc.) to get the 15% loss back, or improve the amount of air pumped at the current efficiency, such as turbocharging, supercharging, etc. Both viewpoints increase the total available air to burn with the fuel, allowing more LP to be burned. This is why gasoline has been king for 100 years, and alternative fuels are a hard sell, as the cost/energy ratio just isn't there, and a loss in available power to boot.

David

I was thinking of using the propane as the get around fuel, then when you hit the power adder, it dumps the race gas or what have you with N02, so you can make the power. What do you think of that? Make it cheap to run around with, then make it perform when you need
 

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I was thinking of using the propane as the get around fuel, then when you hit the power adder, it dumps the race gas or what have you with N02, so you can make the power. What do you think of that? Make it cheap to run around with, then make it perform when you need
That's a plan. As you lose energy, it's very hard to gain it back without a power adder. N2O would certainly qualify for that. If you go for it, post-up. I have heard of several N20/LPG/LNG type combinations, but have not ventured there myself. A couple guys I know were into it, and were using port injected LNG, controlling with a MegaSquirt. They likely have some valuable insight. I guess I'll have to look into local prices now also. Gee, thanks Hawk. :rolleyes:;)

David
 

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Discussion Starter #10
That's a plan. As you lose energy, it's very hard to gain it back without a power adder. N2O would certainly qualify for that. If you go for it, post-up. I have heard of several N20/LPG/LNG type combinations, but have not ventured there myself. A couple guys I know were into it, and were using port injected LNG, controlling with a MegaSquirt. They likely have some valuable insight. I guess I'll have to look into local prices now also. Gee, thanks Hawk. :rolleyes:;)

David
Anytime :D

But that's why I posted up, I'm a cheapskate so I wanted to see if cutting fuel costs would be of any use... See if you build a fire breathing small block engine that runs say a 500 horse on 110 fuel, you can run it on propane and assuming the 15% loss from the fuel, still have four bucks and a quarter to play with. Now, build it right and you could spray a 350 shot on that and make nearly 800 when you want it, all while running on readily available fuel when you don't need it...

or do a 545 and the sky (and traction) is the limit!
 

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David, were you able to find anything out from the guys using the megasquirt systems?
Waiting for a reply, but the basic LPG conversion is fairly straightforward. The Ford 400M conversion in the pic below is using a gutted carb, LPG injectors bolted to it and a TPS sensor for the MS. The port injection is also simple as no bungs are needed, just drill and tap to 1/8 NPT. He didn't do N2O, but that's just an add-on to the basic system. Simple is sweet.

BTW - DanSpec did this many years ago and had to figure workarounds for the early MS injector control, but that became a standard MS feature almost 10 years ago. All the current MS units using v3 boards or newer have the capability of "peak and hold" injector control that the LPG injectors use. I'll let you know when I get more N2O info.

David

A pair of Tomasetto reducers feed these Valtek LPG injector rails. You can see the rest is common carb stuff:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Waiting for a reply, but the basic LPG conversion is fairly straightforward. The Ford 400M conversion in the pic below is using a gutted carb, LPG injectors bolted to it and a TPS sensor for the MS. The port injection is also simple as no bungs are needed, just drill and tap to 1/8 NPT. He didn't do N2O, but that's just an add-on to the basic system. Simple is sweet.

BTW - DanSpec did this many years ago and had to figure workarounds for the early MS injector control, but that became a standard MS feature almost 10 years ago. All the current MS units using v3 boards or newer have the capability of "peak and hold" injector control that the LPG injectors use. I'll let you know when I get more N2O info.

David

A pair of Tomasetto reducers feed these Valtek LPG injector rails. You can see the rest is common carb stuff:
Now that is pretty damn cool! I wonder how they plumb the lines in and how they do the controls, that is a pretty rad set up!
 

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If all you guys are going to do is insult each other, take it to PM PLEASE. And I'm sure I speak for everybody when I say "Grown UP?" Thank you.

BTW, Super interesting thread, I sell Peterbilt trucks, and we have heard about some LP set ups that are working well on tractor/trailers. One of the guys I work with just invested in a Hydrogen adder company locally.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Agreed, if you can't do more than fling insults take it to PM and knock yourself out. There's no reason for the insults in the forum.
Yep, I agree. However I do think there is a common denominator between most of the threads that go downhill...

Back on the subject at hand...

A company called "nelson racing engine" of "NRE" uses a duel fuel injection systems on their 1500 hp small block that they have set up in a 280z? when the boost builds on the turbos a second fuel system dumps 115 race gas with the 91 pump gas they use around town. I was thinking of the same kind of set up for the N20...
you can look up NRE on youtube, they have some amazing stuff.
 

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Staged injection is an option. However, at the power levels you're talking should not be necessary at all. The 1500 hp engines need staged injectors because getting a set of injectors that can feed 1500 hp to squeak fuel out for a smooth and controlled idle AFR is tough. 500 hp, no problem. So, while you can certainly do it (MegaSquirt has staged injector function built-in to the Extra code), it is a complication that increases cost and setup complexity without any substantial difference in performance - at this level. As it is, if you are making 350 hp and want 500, you just add 43% more fuel from the same injectors, and enough N2O to burn it efficiently.

David

PS: If you're cruising on crappy fuel and want to add better stuff for just high-power, then that's different. Go for it.
 
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