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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Trans seemed to be ok for about 300 miles then was slow to engage in drive/1st for next 100 and now lost all forward. It is an 82 C5 w/pinto converter behind a 2.3 turbo with close to 400 hp in a 3400 lb T-bird. It's not a daily driver and is driven as if it was at the track all the time.

When I rebuilt it with stock soft parts and seals, I really didn't know what and how to inspect the hard parts. Also left the pump as it was, put in a C4 VB with transgo 40-2, and H servo. I did NOT use a kick down either.

I plan to go full manual and am considering a brake. Will that need higher quality than stock parts?

I have a parts C4 that has given up the VB and H servo to the 1st rebuild. Should I pull the fwd drum and prep it in advance?

After seaching and reading I ASSume the problem is in the fwd drum area? If I could get some advice as to what to expect and preorder the parts it will need that would help alot.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sluggo on 10/12/06 8:40am ]</font>
 

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Yes, it sounds like you have burnt the forward clutches out, most likely cause is a leaking/damaged piston seal in that drum. I would tend to use the original drum as it will keep your endplay the same (excessive endplay could also cause leakage and pack failure....make sure you check it).
You would be looking at frictions, filter, pan/pump gaskets, fluid..... and possibly steels, rubber seal kit. It takes some time to clean all the crap out of the trans....it gets everywhere.
Brakes are hard to trans'...a good cooler is a must (things get hot VERY quickly) and a high capacity pan. You may want to consider performance frictions though alot of people have good luck with the stock type....possibly an extra plate (from stock) in each pack may be good insurance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I forgot to mention that I have been sitting on the foot brake to build boost for up to 5 seconds, and will continue to do so. It is also filled with mobil 1 5W20 motor oil.

For now I will be going with the Trango 40-3 manual shift kit. A dry NOS system will also be used with a 35 - 75 shot depending on what it takes to run 11.50's. I also have a new Pats Performance converter with about 3500 stall that will go in. The Pinto converter gave it about 14% slip at 5500 rpm. Is that reasonable?

Based on the new info should I get the red clutches or any other upgraded parts? I will also be switching to the tractor fluid.
 

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An extra plates should hold that HP ok...as long as the trans is well sealed. Plate type is personal preference.
With what you are doing, the converter is going to be critical. Make sure you talk to someone that knows what they are about.
I would definitely be putting in a trans temp guage....five secounds stalled up on the converter is going to generate ALOT of heat.
Why the switch to tractor fluid?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
On 2006-10-01 11:41, cmf60 wrote:
Why the switch to tractor fluid?
I've been reading about it and it should take the heat and is cheaper than mobil 1. It also is said to let the clutches grip much better than ATF. Alot of racers are using it and don't have anything bad to say about it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Finally got the trans out and torn down. The fwd clutch piston seal is all torn apart and the bellville spring is broken. What do you guys think would cause that to happen? Could it have been a bad seal install?
 

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Excessive play probably allowed the piston to travel far enough to tear itself. That probably broke the spring. Was it cracked when you installed it? How much play was there in the pack when it was assembled?
Paul
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My 1st rebuild. I didn't get a good look at the spring when installed. The pack clearence was around .025, don't remember exactly. It was checked with a feeler gauge at the retaining clip. Also the front of the fwd clutch hub was grinding on something, it is missing quite a bit of material. I believe this was do to the broken bellville. I'll try to get a pic of the carnage up later tonight.
 

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If I had to name one thing that I felt was lacking in the hot rod arena it would be:
Record Keeping
Keep records of every little thing you do.
Keep records of all your clearances when you rebuild anything
Keep records of each failure and each thing that work well

Did I mention that you should keep records?

OK, I got that out of my system for tonight. Rebuilding a transmission or a motor is all about checking and rechecking clearances. I have forms that I use to keep the clearances before and after the rebuild. (it also helps me keep good records) oops! that just slipped out. How many clutches (lined plates) were in that pack?
lessons taught with this rebuild:
Inspect EVERY part
check and double check all clearances
Keep records of everything!

call your oil company and ask them if the "tractor oil" is good in an automotive automatic transmission. It needs to withstand temps near 300 - 350; it has to have anti-foaming agents in it; it needs to lubricate bushings and thrust washers; it needs to allow paper based clutches and bands to lock up without slipage; it needs to be between 3 and 7 wt oil in viscosity from below freezing to 300 degrees F; and needs to tranfer heat well enough to keep your transmission cool under those same circumstances.
If their tractor oil can do all of that without sludging then it should be ok.

It should also meet the same MIL spec that is listed on a can of type F tranny oil. Type "F" ATF is the highest heat tolerant, best limited slip ATF and provides excellent cooling (heat transfer) and lubrication to the bearings and thrust washers that you can get for a transmission.

What you can do to make it last longer next time:
Install a cooler rated for towing a 25000 lb load (minimum)
Make sure that you have between .005 and .010 inches of clearance per friction plate in your clutch packs.
check and maintain .009 to .016 inches of total end play in the assembled transmission and no more than .003 inch between the front clutch and pump distribution stub.
Did you start with a C5 transmission case? if not then you need to increase cooler capacity in the pump and return passages. You will need to increase the size of the lube circuits in the case and add (drill holes in the case) direct lubrication for the #9 thrust washer (behind the one way clutch inner race)
Unless the clutches were burnt, use the stock clutch type it held up to the loads before you don't need better friction - you need to keep from breaking parts.
Get away from using motor oil - use the oil designed for the job. Use type "F" ATF unless you can find something that exceeds its performance characteristics. "tractor oil" is just a lightweight motor oil. It is used in some commercial transmissions but it isn't as good in a Ford automatic as type "F" ATF. It is cheaper - and if you change it after every quarter mile it will probably work fine. That is what the high dollar racers do - they dump it out and replace it after every run. Ask the folks at TransGo what they recommend.
Get a stall converter from a reputable source. Don't use a stock unit from a lower powered car to get more stall speed. You need to get a convertor that is made to take the horsepower your engine produces and stall at a set RPM that is at the same RPM that your cam gets peak torque. (that value will change a bit with the weight of your car and the average speed that you travel.) The converter needs to lock up at some preset speed or it continues to cook the oil.
If you have to load your engine for five seconds to spin you turbo up then consider having it sized to fit your application better it should spin up within a second of full load being applied by a wide open throttle.
If you are going to add a 75 HP shot of nitrous then add more cooling to your tranny and get an after market drive plate (flywheel) so it doesn't break and ruin your torque converter, stator support and pump.

I am sure that I am missing something but my mind is shutting down - its after 2:00 AM and I am going to bed.
Paul
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Found most of the problems when I took the fwd clutch pack out. I had put the flat plate on the bottom and the beveled plate on top somehow. OOPS! So that chewed the hub, broke the bellville, let the piston travel to far and ate the seal. At least that is how I see it.

Did I use the correct piston seal? The one with a groove on the bottom side and a bevel cut.

The fwd clutches are now set at .025. I used the bellville spring and hub from the parts C4 I have. The high/rev now has 5 smooth red clutches set at .037. It had 4 waffles. All the thrust washers are new and the end play is set at .016. I sure hope this thing stays together for next year. I can't get over how easy it is to work on it though.

Thank you all for the help. The info on this forum is fantastic.

Doug
 

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Did I use the correct piston seal? The one with a groove on the bottom side and a bevel cut.

Depends on the piston. Almost all c4's use a square cut seal though i think the lip seal comes in the kit MIGHT work.If it air tested ok should be right. For the lip seal the piston has an undercut on the lower side.The seal is fairly square but unlike a c6 where the lip hangs over the lower section of the piston. The lip seal i have found is from factory is for the C5 though i did have one c4 that someone had machined both pistons to suit.

Sounds like you got it figured anyway .I'm surprised the forward clutch even worked with that flat plate.The beleville spring must have gone a long way.
 

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Also since you have a turbo there,did you do anything for the modulator so it doesn't see boost. Just wondering if it shifts in drive ok.. I am doing a similar thing soon and have been advised to use 2 one-way valves in line to stop the boost going to modulator..
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This is in a C5 case. The square cut seamed to be a little loose. The parts C4 has the same piston and had the square cut in it also. If it doesn't last I'll just do it again. It gets easier after the first time.

I did get a converter made for this combo from Pats Performance Converters. They have a good reputation with the Buick GN crowd and were recomended from someone with a similar vehicle.

I've heard several people say not to worry about boost to the modulator. Mine shifted fine in drive, although not as soon as I would have liked. I could have made some adjustments to get it how I like it. With the 40-3 I won't use vacumm to the modulator.

Greg, could you send me the burly stage 4 mods? Nevermind sending, I found they were posted yesterday. These will work with the 40-3 kit? Still need to do the VB.

I was surprised it lasted that long put together wrong also. Live and learn.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sluggo on 10/15/06 9:18pm ]</font>
 

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The lip seal is actually for the high reverse and is a little bit bigger than the forward ,but like i mentioned i did do one c4 the same with the lip seal.Should be fine.
The burly mods will work with the 40-3 kit. If you want to try it,I will send you some pics of my own V.B which is a cross between the burly mods and using the transgo springs. I have done a couple now with the 40-2 and 40-3 kits drilling the holes to .155" when running 500-600 rwhp and works good .
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I drilled the 2 holes to 5/32 (.155) also and used the directions from you. It already had the 40-2 and possibly other kits as well. The hard part was finding a spring for the check ball. Ended up with half a pen spring. I didn't have alot to choose from. I'll see how it all works hopefully before next weekend.

Thanks again to everyone. I'm sure I'll be back in it or another one and will try to keep up with the latest stuff. There is also still a few things that haven't been done on this one.

Doug
 

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Yep that's the holes.I drilled the 2 to .155" and left the top one beside the rectangle plug at the transgo size.Done a couple like that now.
 
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