--- 302 vrs 351 stroker
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radracing - 8:14 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
Hi FORD Fans
ok what is better, a stroked 302 or a stroked 351w what kits are best.whatis the best what cubic in. for hard racing with a 4 or 5 sp. what HP can we get WP heads or a great set of after market head do you suggest
we are going for all throttle no bottle
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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jason mcginnis - 8:21 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
hey there is no replacement for cubic inch displacement. Well unless you have a ton of money(ha ha!). 4sp or 5 speed? I guess for my self I would go with the 4 spd, because i don't need an over drive, which most of them are?
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radracing - 8:27 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
well we were going with a Jerico or a G-Force 5sp with 1:1 5th gear. which stroker kit is reliable and cheaper to replace crank,pistons and rods
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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n2omike - 8:45 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
The 351W block is WAY more durable. The 69-74 blocks are the strongest. These blocks have 1/2" main and head bolts and MUCH thicker webbing than any factory 302 block.
Personally, I don't believe any factory 302 block (when stroked) is strong enough for serious racing (or power adder) duty. The 2-bolt 7/16" main bolts and thin webbing, combined with 10 measly 7/16" head bolts don't exactly spell "full race". The main caps will bounce (especially when stroked) and head gaskets will blow.
If you want to spend the $2k+ for a machined R302 block, you can play "race car" with a stroked high compression/power adder 302, but otherwise, you're better off with the 351 for serious race duty.
In non stroked form, 302's are fine for up to around 500hp as long as the tune is kept conservative and the engine is not run into detonation. Running one into detonation at this level will kill it. At this level, head gaskets will also need upgraded to loc-wires or the block/heads will need grooved for wire. Strokers are reliable to even less power, since they put more of a strain on the lower end.
Do NOT combine a stroker with a power adder on a stock block if long life or is expected.
Stroked 351W's are the best way to go fast with a small block ford. With a huge set of heads, they can make scary amounts of power!
My $0.02
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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drag79stang - 9:40 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
I hate being redundant, but...........351W w/Eagle stroker kit. 418 cubes, w/world product sr/s, crane solid cam, victor jr, 950 holley= 572.6 hp @ 6400 rpm, w/517 ft lbs tq @ 5200. (that is what was on the motor when we dyno'd it in feb.
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chilly460 - 10:37 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
Building 500hp is relatively easy with a stroked 351, and it still isn't really pushing the envelope of block strength. Also, if it really matters, a 393 or 408 still dont compromise the ring lands with the pin hole. As stated, 500hp is on the ragged edge with a 302 block, and the engine will not really be streetable IMO. The cost for the two engines is practically the same, and a 351 fits in all but the smallest of engine bays, any of the cars you have listed will accomodate it.
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ghettostang - 6:08 am on Nov. 14, 2001
no replacement for displacement. besides, 351 is stronger.
my .02
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George E. Leggett
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a66gt - 9:38 pm on Nov. 14, 2001
Buy the 302 sportsman block. Theres 12 1/2 more pounds casted into thisblock in the webbing department
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- 9:56 pm on Nov. 14, 2001
What motor or you running now?? What car is it in?? 302 stroked is less weight in a late model mustang and 351 stroked is better if you prefer a faster setup!!
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Ron1 - 1:18 am on Nov. 15, 2001
Hi Mike...starting to get the feeling you really don't like 347's. And I think I feel a bit insulted...although it is fun to "Play race car"..anyway, 347 with an R302 block, forged crank, Eagle "H" beams and Ross forged slugs, Victor Jr. heads and Victor intake, 825 CFM Barry Grant race demon.
N/A on the engine dyno it made 604.6 at 7200 and 490 ft/lbs of torque at 5400-6200.
Dyno sheet is on web site.
Ron
Edited by: Ron1
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DynoTom - 1:35 am on Nov. 15, 2001
Well Ron 1, I for one am very impressed with your dyno numbers!
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I will be using a 408-W package set up by Keith Craft racing.
I think for me since Im starting from scratch on this new motor,I would be best off going with a "big winsor".
But its sure nice to see your dyno numbers with your 347 come in at around the power Im looking for.
I will be using allot of the same types of parts your combo uses just bigger.
Keith Craft says there is no reason the motor combo he setting up should not pump out a consevative 600-650 on motor.
I will also have a little shot of nitrous to add some torque to it.
The compression ratio were using is 13 1/2 to 1 with Victor heads and intake allong with King Demon carb.
I know it will make the car perform to my ET goals!
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95 F-350 XLT 460-95 Crown Victoria 4.6 P.I.-91 Mustang GT 302 H.O.
Edited by: DynoTom
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n2omike - 7:37 am on Nov. 15, 2001
I'm VERY impressed with those numbers. 605hp is nothing to sneeze at!
True, I'm not that big of a fan of 347's, especially ones built out of stock blocks. If you want to push one of these strokers, a stock block just won't take the additional stress a big stroker like that will generate.
To do a small block stroker RIGHT, you DO need an aftermarket block. This is a big $2k+ upgrade. Plus, to go 347, the pin is up in the oil ring, and the pistons have extrememly short skirts that don't distribute the side loads or keep the piston from rocking as well as a longer piston. 347's just don't last as long as they should.
I'm not saying they CAN'T be made to work, and produce some serious power in the process, just that things are being pushed to the max, and won't last as long as something a bit less radical. That $2k+ block (necessary at the 500+ hp level) is also a deal killer.
A stock 351W block, especially the 69-74 models, will withstand those power levels all day long. A buddy of mine built a 426W with a 79' model block and cut down 400 crank and pushed to for two seasons to the tune of 5.92 @ 121 in the 1/8 on two stages of nitrous before selling it to a guy who ran it after that. He then built a Motorsport siamesed 9.5" block and started running 5.3's in the 1/8... this time shifting at 7800rpm instead of 6200. It was a little smaller too. I believe it was a 396.
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All I'm saying, is that if I were going to the expense of building a maximum effort stroker, it would be a 351W stroked out to around 400ci. I just think you're further ahead in the long run. If your target is 600hp, it won't have to turn insane rpms's to do it, and should last a lot longer... OR, if you're really serious, the wick can be turned up to make close to 800hp.
That's just how I would do it. Everybody else is free to do what they want. Maybe they want a block that looks like a 302... Maybe they already have the intake, oilpan, headers and distributer for a 302 and don't want to buy new stuff... Maybe the race class only allows the 8.2" block...
Everyone has their reasons for choosing their particular path. If everyone was the same, racing would get boring pretty quick.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just state my opinions in a "matter of fact" style. I just state the facts as I see them, and don't always think about how people might feel about it.
I DO like your 605hp 8.2" mustang, and have your page bookmarked on my computer.
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Good luck next year! I think you just might be knocking on that 9second door no bottle once the bugs get worked out.
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Later!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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n2omike - 10:00 am on Nov. 15, 2001
My heart goes out to the people who read all the ads and put a pile of money into a stock block 347... then lean on it pretty hard with a blower or nitrous. Combinations like this EASILY overcome the capacities of the stock block casting. What the customer ends up with is a pile of scrap iron after a short period of time.
A stroker 302 that is going to be subjected to the stresses of a power adder, NEEDS some sort of aftermarket or Boss 302 block. Main girdles just aren't enough.
In short, if you're going to build a "power adder" 302 using the stock block, don't stroke it. All you are doing is weakening the foundation. A power adder is enough to push a stock block to its limits. (no stroking needed!)
My $0.02
Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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racer7088 - 4:04 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
I agree about using strokers AND NOS on stock 302 blocks but they seem to run fine and last forever NA when done right. I've been looking at this very objectively and for some time and haven't seen any big probs with the stroker small blocks. The same places that do have probs screw up 306s too all the time.
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Erik Koenig
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Ron1 - 7:20 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
I think you hit on it Mike. Had all the parts from the 306 that I re-used. And you and I have had this talk many times before. I'm just looking for 10K miles out of the motor...I think that equates to 4 passes per mile or 40,000 passes..at 20 per weekend x 36 weekends that would be 50 plus years...hmmm.
One thing that did help me is that my youngest son works for Ford Motorsport...smart kid.
Ron
Edited by: Ron1
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- 7:33 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
Give DSS Racing a call and get yourself into one of there stroker motors!!! Prefferably a 331 stroker!!They have a great main support system for the bottom end and hold up to LOT'S of horsepower!! Less weight and makes just as much power as a 351!!
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RANDY
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Ron1 - 11:13 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
how do you define LOTS...
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Brumby - 12:35 am on Nov. 16, 2001
Has anyone tried the 351 to 427 stroker from PAW that was featured in Mustangs and Fords? Incredible
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giddyup - 4:42 am on Nov. 16, 2001
so if i have a stock 302 block stroked to 347 with about 400hp whats the longevity of this engine likely to be???
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n2omike - 6:50 am on Nov. 16, 2001
As long as it's not pushed overly hard with a big shot of nitrous or a blower, it should be fine.
It might not deliver quite the service life of a non stroked 302, but it's not going to wear out tomorrow either. Just realize its limitations. From reading the ads, people will slap a girdle on one and think they have full race block ready for whatever they can dish out.
You'll be fine.
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Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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racer7088 - 10:31 am on Nov. 16, 2001
""so if I have a stock 302 block stroked to 347 with about 400hp whats the longevity of this engine likely to be???""
It's all about how it's setup and tuned. I've seen far more blown up 306s with the same blowers as 347s but they run higher cylinder presuure and have crappier stock cranks and balancers usually for the most part. If you aren't trying to make too much power and aren't detonating then you'll be fine a lot longer than people will tell you.
If your running naturally aspirated with an EFI long runner I don't think you'd ever blow up a 331/347 and youll only make more streetable power and tq with the bigger inches.
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Erik Koenig
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radracing - 10:56 am on Nov. 16, 2001
It sounds like the 351 stroker is the way to go. this motor will never see the street or a blower or NOS it will get hammerd alot on the strip.what is a good manifold will a 850 DP be enought carb we will run a Doug-Nash 5 sp. with a 3.19 1st gear and 5th will be 1-1 so how hard can we turn the 351 stroker what RPM can we leave at
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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qtrhors - 11:14 am on Nov. 16, 2001
The stroker thing is always an interesting subject. They are the latest rage in the Hot Rod world it seems. Especially now that we have great cyl heads to feed these beasts
IMHO the ring package, the piston length, and the piston speed are the most important areas in a stroker combo that someone wants a long service life out of. It seems that Ford has general never liked low rod ratios as related to piston speed. Stroker kits that use short pistons and thus ring packages that move the rings together or closer to the top of the piston deck or both and also moving the piston pin into the ring package (usually the oil ring) have potential problems. It seems a shorter piston would be less stable and tend to "rock". Combine that with higher piston speeds and increased cyl wall side loading because the rod ratio number is getting smaller and the ring seal may not last as long as the factory combo. I know people say that rod ratios mean nothing. Maybe they don’t when it comes to Horsepower but I’m using them for comparison sake. It’s really ring seal quality and longevity that matters. Especially for those who want an engine that will last several years and thousands of miles like a factory engine. Any stroker combo that uses a very short piston/ring package and puts the piston pin into the oil ring IMHO will not last long. I have heard the 347 with the 5.4 rod has had ring seal problems. Coast High Performance has even went to a slightly shorter rod to move the piston pin out of the oil ring area. Now on race engines or engines that will be torn down every year the issue of long term ring seal of course doesn’t matter as much.
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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly
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Cyclone Joe - 2:04 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
If you are putting the motor in the Cyclone, just do the brand new 427 block with tunnel ports or Ebock heads. Please for the sake of pete, the Cyclone is asking for the FE. Sorry, eheh, just my rant for the morning. It sounds like your choice is clear, unless you get a new 427 block!!! sorry, now I'll shut up. Hehe
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1967 Mercury Comet Cyclone GT convertable
My car isn't aerodynamic, it doesn't need to be
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racer7088 - 2:43 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
qtrhors,
Not a flame but just some good old fashioned truth. Coast conveniently has a setup they want you to buy so it's a selling point for them and an obvious conflict of interest. Why believe them? Who is "Coast" really? Have they done an ABA scientific test with the only difference being this piston type? I doubt it. I have had three problems with stuff and products from them and never talked to anyone there who had even a clue. It was like they were reading off of cue cards. When you repeat what "they" say it is almost worse without any real proof.
There are several new engines that also feature MUCH shorter pistons and skirts nowadays as OEM ala LS1 for instance. A stroker will usually actually be MORE reliable due to lower rpm. I'd do a 351 anyway but then I'd stroke that too!
The pin in the oil ring thing has been done for years and there are no real problems with it at all. Coast/Probe was still using non located oil rail supports until recently so they had problems maybe. JE and Wiseco and other decent piston manufacturers have had this figured out for a long time now.
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Erik Koenig
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qtrhors - 6:14 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
I just mentioned Coast from what Ive read and heard from others. I personally have never dealt with them. The question you ask is one that I have wondered many times. How do those who sell this stuff know that it works long term. Could you get 50000 miles...100000 miles outa one of or all of these stroker combos? You say that the pin in the oil ring is no real problem....based on what data? Im only asking because I have heard that ring seal quality and longivity wasnt up to par vs stock. I plan on stroking my 351 too. It woulda been a 393 had that crank been available in early spring 98 Our current motor is 3 1/2 yrs old....it has been on 2 1000 round trips...1 3800 mi round trip...with over a 100 passes on a dragstrip. It is driven almost every day in nice weather. It uses no oil and still pulls the same numbers on the track. This is what I want any combo I build to be able to do. I know that I may be be reaching....but I want 500 NA horspower windsor on 91 oct gas and I want the longivity of a bone stocker.
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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly
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radracing - 6:55 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
well thats what I want to know about stroker kits what I'm hearing is the eagle makes the best kit.for 302 or 351W alot of peple have tryed differant kits and and had no long term use out of them we are not easy on our motors because we drag race them we come out of the line at6500-7000 and shift at 7200 just because our top loader won't shift above that. our little 302 we have now makes HP up to 8300rpm no problem yet after 1 1/2 years on the track the leak down is still under 10% can a stroker do this? anybody run a stroke hard and what does it look like have you ran a leak down on it
Alan
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n2omike - 7:15 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
Being limited to 7200rpm is even more of a reason to go the 351W route. A stroker 351W will pull your b*lls off... and won't want shifted much over 6000rpm.
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They last a LONG time that way.
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Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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Ron1 - 11:19 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
One thing i forgot to mention in my other posts. I was VERY impressed with jd's performance where i bought my kit. He called, asked questions, talked with the machine shop. Then to top it off, he delivered on the day he said he would, and the cost was as quoted and at the best price. He took care of the custom pistons from Ross and put together a package he felt would work, using all the top manufacturers in the business. You can find them at http://www.jdsperformance.com or you should call and talk to Dave. Tell him Ron said to call.
BTW...the hp level he predicted? Almost right on the money.
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racer7088 - 11:22 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
qtrhors,
I know your just going with the flow but it is mostly internet rumor. I have been looking at this now for two years and I've seen 3 347 motors go over 100K now. They run fine and one had bad guides and when that was fixed the motor seemed new again! One was built in the old days by Ronnie Crawford and one was by Ron Anderson and the last was by a local shop here in Houston.
That local 347 had Pinto rods and they are only like 5.2 inches! This engine was almost ten years old. That car was in to have a piston fixed because of NOS and it turned out to have cracked a place in the intake port near the pushrod that was sucking oil and had two slightly bent exhaust valves. There was still nothing wrong with the bottom end. It honed out nice and we reused the pistons which were all right side chevy manley pistons or something. It cleaned up easy.
When I was first here in Houston I also helped a guy freshen a 347 that was built by KC and that one had 48,000 miles on it. It also was in great shape but the tfs tw heads had several loose guides that were causing the smoking and after putting k-liners in it and new seals the shortblock leaked down at 7 per cent on all cylinders and this guy used a 100 shot a lot!
I'm not really worried anymore and I used to be really concerned.
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Erik Koenig
_________________
Administrator
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: admin on 1/3/02 5:48am ]</font>
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radracing - 8:14 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
Hi FORD Fans
ok what is better, a stroked 302 or a stroked 351w what kits are best.whatis the best what cubic in. for hard racing with a 4 or 5 sp. what HP can we get WP heads or a great set of after market head do you suggest
we are going for all throttle no bottle
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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jason mcginnis - 8:21 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
hey there is no replacement for cubic inch displacement. Well unless you have a ton of money(ha ha!). 4sp or 5 speed? I guess for my self I would go with the 4 spd, because i don't need an over drive, which most of them are?
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radracing - 8:27 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
well we were going with a Jerico or a G-Force 5sp with 1:1 5th gear. which stroker kit is reliable and cheaper to replace crank,pistons and rods
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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n2omike - 8:45 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
The 351W block is WAY more durable. The 69-74 blocks are the strongest. These blocks have 1/2" main and head bolts and MUCH thicker webbing than any factory 302 block.
Personally, I don't believe any factory 302 block (when stroked) is strong enough for serious racing (or power adder) duty. The 2-bolt 7/16" main bolts and thin webbing, combined with 10 measly 7/16" head bolts don't exactly spell "full race". The main caps will bounce (especially when stroked) and head gaskets will blow.
If you want to spend the $2k+ for a machined R302 block, you can play "race car" with a stroked high compression/power adder 302, but otherwise, you're better off with the 351 for serious race duty.
In non stroked form, 302's are fine for up to around 500hp as long as the tune is kept conservative and the engine is not run into detonation. Running one into detonation at this level will kill it. At this level, head gaskets will also need upgraded to loc-wires or the block/heads will need grooved for wire. Strokers are reliable to even less power, since they put more of a strain on the lower end.
Do NOT combine a stroker with a power adder on a stock block if long life or is expected.
Stroked 351W's are the best way to go fast with a small block ford. With a huge set of heads, they can make scary amounts of power!
My $0.02
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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drag79stang - 9:40 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
I hate being redundant, but...........351W w/Eagle stroker kit. 418 cubes, w/world product sr/s, crane solid cam, victor jr, 950 holley= 572.6 hp @ 6400 rpm, w/517 ft lbs tq @ 5200. (that is what was on the motor when we dyno'd it in feb.
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chilly460 - 10:37 pm on Nov. 13, 2001
Building 500hp is relatively easy with a stroked 351, and it still isn't really pushing the envelope of block strength. Also, if it really matters, a 393 or 408 still dont compromise the ring lands with the pin hole. As stated, 500hp is on the ragged edge with a 302 block, and the engine will not really be streetable IMO. The cost for the two engines is practically the same, and a 351 fits in all but the smallest of engine bays, any of the cars you have listed will accomodate it.
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ghettostang - 6:08 am on Nov. 14, 2001
no replacement for displacement. besides, 351 is stronger.
my .02
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George E. Leggett
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a66gt - 9:38 pm on Nov. 14, 2001
Buy the 302 sportsman block. Theres 12 1/2 more pounds casted into thisblock in the webbing department
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- 9:56 pm on Nov. 14, 2001
What motor or you running now?? What car is it in?? 302 stroked is less weight in a late model mustang and 351 stroked is better if you prefer a faster setup!!
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Ron1 - 1:18 am on Nov. 15, 2001
Hi Mike...starting to get the feeling you really don't like 347's. And I think I feel a bit insulted...although it is fun to "Play race car"..anyway, 347 with an R302 block, forged crank, Eagle "H" beams and Ross forged slugs, Victor Jr. heads and Victor intake, 825 CFM Barry Grant race demon.
N/A on the engine dyno it made 604.6 at 7200 and 490 ft/lbs of torque at 5400-6200.
Dyno sheet is on web site.
Ron
Edited by: Ron1
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DynoTom - 1:35 am on Nov. 15, 2001
Well Ron 1, I for one am very impressed with your dyno numbers!
I will be using a 408-W package set up by Keith Craft racing.
I think for me since Im starting from scratch on this new motor,I would be best off going with a "big winsor".
But its sure nice to see your dyno numbers with your 347 come in at around the power Im looking for.
I will be using allot of the same types of parts your combo uses just bigger.
Keith Craft says there is no reason the motor combo he setting up should not pump out a consevative 600-650 on motor.
I will also have a little shot of nitrous to add some torque to it.
The compression ratio were using is 13 1/2 to 1 with Victor heads and intake allong with King Demon carb.
I know it will make the car perform to my ET goals!
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95 F-350 XLT 460-95 Crown Victoria 4.6 P.I.-91 Mustang GT 302 H.O.
Edited by: DynoTom
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n2omike - 7:37 am on Nov. 15, 2001
I'm VERY impressed with those numbers. 605hp is nothing to sneeze at!
True, I'm not that big of a fan of 347's, especially ones built out of stock blocks. If you want to push one of these strokers, a stock block just won't take the additional stress a big stroker like that will generate.
To do a small block stroker RIGHT, you DO need an aftermarket block. This is a big $2k+ upgrade. Plus, to go 347, the pin is up in the oil ring, and the pistons have extrememly short skirts that don't distribute the side loads or keep the piston from rocking as well as a longer piston. 347's just don't last as long as they should.
I'm not saying they CAN'T be made to work, and produce some serious power in the process, just that things are being pushed to the max, and won't last as long as something a bit less radical. That $2k+ block (necessary at the 500+ hp level) is also a deal killer.
A stock 351W block, especially the 69-74 models, will withstand those power levels all day long. A buddy of mine built a 426W with a 79' model block and cut down 400 crank and pushed to for two seasons to the tune of 5.92 @ 121 in the 1/8 on two stages of nitrous before selling it to a guy who ran it after that. He then built a Motorsport siamesed 9.5" block and started running 5.3's in the 1/8... this time shifting at 7800rpm instead of 6200. It was a little smaller too. I believe it was a 396.
All I'm saying, is that if I were going to the expense of building a maximum effort stroker, it would be a 351W stroked out to around 400ci. I just think you're further ahead in the long run. If your target is 600hp, it won't have to turn insane rpms's to do it, and should last a lot longer... OR, if you're really serious, the wick can be turned up to make close to 800hp.
That's just how I would do it. Everybody else is free to do what they want. Maybe they want a block that looks like a 302... Maybe they already have the intake, oilpan, headers and distributer for a 302 and don't want to buy new stuff... Maybe the race class only allows the 8.2" block...
Everyone has their reasons for choosing their particular path. If everyone was the same, racing would get boring pretty quick.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just state my opinions in a "matter of fact" style. I just state the facts as I see them, and don't always think about how people might feel about it.
I DO like your 605hp 8.2" mustang, and have your page bookmarked on my computer.
Later!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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n2omike - 10:00 am on Nov. 15, 2001
My heart goes out to the people who read all the ads and put a pile of money into a stock block 347... then lean on it pretty hard with a blower or nitrous. Combinations like this EASILY overcome the capacities of the stock block casting. What the customer ends up with is a pile of scrap iron after a short period of time.
A stroker 302 that is going to be subjected to the stresses of a power adder, NEEDS some sort of aftermarket or Boss 302 block. Main girdles just aren't enough.
In short, if you're going to build a "power adder" 302 using the stock block, don't stroke it. All you are doing is weakening the foundation. A power adder is enough to push a stock block to its limits. (no stroking needed!)
My $0.02
Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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racer7088 - 4:04 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
I agree about using strokers AND NOS on stock 302 blocks but they seem to run fine and last forever NA when done right. I've been looking at this very objectively and for some time and haven't seen any big probs with the stroker small blocks. The same places that do have probs screw up 306s too all the time.
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Erik Koenig
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Ron1 - 7:20 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
I think you hit on it Mike. Had all the parts from the 306 that I re-used. And you and I have had this talk many times before. I'm just looking for 10K miles out of the motor...I think that equates to 4 passes per mile or 40,000 passes..at 20 per weekend x 36 weekends that would be 50 plus years...hmmm.
One thing that did help me is that my youngest son works for Ford Motorsport...smart kid.
Ron
Edited by: Ron1
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- 7:33 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
Give DSS Racing a call and get yourself into one of there stroker motors!!! Prefferably a 331 stroker!!They have a great main support system for the bottom end and hold up to LOT'S of horsepower!! Less weight and makes just as much power as a 351!!
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RANDY
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Ron1 - 11:13 pm on Nov. 15, 2001
how do you define LOTS...
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Brumby - 12:35 am on Nov. 16, 2001
Has anyone tried the 351 to 427 stroker from PAW that was featured in Mustangs and Fords? Incredible
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giddyup - 4:42 am on Nov. 16, 2001
so if i have a stock 302 block stroked to 347 with about 400hp whats the longevity of this engine likely to be???
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n2omike - 6:50 am on Nov. 16, 2001
As long as it's not pushed overly hard with a big shot of nitrous or a blower, it should be fine.
It might not deliver quite the service life of a non stroked 302, but it's not going to wear out tomorrow either. Just realize its limitations. From reading the ads, people will slap a girdle on one and think they have full race block ready for whatever they can dish out.
You'll be fine.
Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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racer7088 - 10:31 am on Nov. 16, 2001
""so if I have a stock 302 block stroked to 347 with about 400hp whats the longevity of this engine likely to be???""
It's all about how it's setup and tuned. I've seen far more blown up 306s with the same blowers as 347s but they run higher cylinder presuure and have crappier stock cranks and balancers usually for the most part. If you aren't trying to make too much power and aren't detonating then you'll be fine a lot longer than people will tell you.
If your running naturally aspirated with an EFI long runner I don't think you'd ever blow up a 331/347 and youll only make more streetable power and tq with the bigger inches.
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Erik Koenig
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radracing - 10:56 am on Nov. 16, 2001
It sounds like the 351 stroker is the way to go. this motor will never see the street or a blower or NOS it will get hammerd alot on the strip.what is a good manifold will a 850 DP be enought carb we will run a Doug-Nash 5 sp. with a 3.19 1st gear and 5th will be 1-1 so how hard can we turn the 351 stroker what RPM can we leave at
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64 Falcon Sprint, 66 Comet Cyclone GT 95 Mustang GT
race it or show it, don't let it rust
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qtrhors - 11:14 am on Nov. 16, 2001
The stroker thing is always an interesting subject. They are the latest rage in the Hot Rod world it seems. Especially now that we have great cyl heads to feed these beasts
IMHO the ring package, the piston length, and the piston speed are the most important areas in a stroker combo that someone wants a long service life out of. It seems that Ford has general never liked low rod ratios as related to piston speed. Stroker kits that use short pistons and thus ring packages that move the rings together or closer to the top of the piston deck or both and also moving the piston pin into the ring package (usually the oil ring) have potential problems. It seems a shorter piston would be less stable and tend to "rock". Combine that with higher piston speeds and increased cyl wall side loading because the rod ratio number is getting smaller and the ring seal may not last as long as the factory combo. I know people say that rod ratios mean nothing. Maybe they don’t when it comes to Horsepower but I’m using them for comparison sake. It’s really ring seal quality and longevity that matters. Especially for those who want an engine that will last several years and thousands of miles like a factory engine. Any stroker combo that uses a very short piston/ring package and puts the piston pin into the oil ring IMHO will not last long. I have heard the 347 with the 5.4 rod has had ring seal problems. Coast High Performance has even went to a slightly shorter rod to move the piston pin out of the oil ring area. Now on race engines or engines that will be torn down every year the issue of long term ring seal of course doesn’t matter as much.
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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly
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Cyclone Joe - 2:04 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
If you are putting the motor in the Cyclone, just do the brand new 427 block with tunnel ports or Ebock heads. Please for the sake of pete, the Cyclone is asking for the FE. Sorry, eheh, just my rant for the morning. It sounds like your choice is clear, unless you get a new 427 block!!! sorry, now I'll shut up. Hehe
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1967 Mercury Comet Cyclone GT convertable
My car isn't aerodynamic, it doesn't need to be
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racer7088 - 2:43 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
qtrhors,
Not a flame but just some good old fashioned truth. Coast conveniently has a setup they want you to buy so it's a selling point for them and an obvious conflict of interest. Why believe them? Who is "Coast" really? Have they done an ABA scientific test with the only difference being this piston type? I doubt it. I have had three problems with stuff and products from them and never talked to anyone there who had even a clue. It was like they were reading off of cue cards. When you repeat what "they" say it is almost worse without any real proof.
There are several new engines that also feature MUCH shorter pistons and skirts nowadays as OEM ala LS1 for instance. A stroker will usually actually be MORE reliable due to lower rpm. I'd do a 351 anyway but then I'd stroke that too!
The pin in the oil ring thing has been done for years and there are no real problems with it at all. Coast/Probe was still using non located oil rail supports until recently so they had problems maybe. JE and Wiseco and other decent piston manufacturers have had this figured out for a long time now.
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Erik Koenig
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qtrhors - 6:14 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
I just mentioned Coast from what Ive read and heard from others. I personally have never dealt with them. The question you ask is one that I have wondered many times. How do those who sell this stuff know that it works long term. Could you get 50000 miles...100000 miles outa one of or all of these stroker combos? You say that the pin in the oil ring is no real problem....based on what data? Im only asking because I have heard that ring seal quality and longivity wasnt up to par vs stock. I plan on stroking my 351 too. It woulda been a 393 had that crank been available in early spring 98 Our current motor is 3 1/2 yrs old....it has been on 2 1000 round trips...1 3800 mi round trip...with over a 100 passes on a dragstrip. It is driven almost every day in nice weather. It uses no oil and still pulls the same numbers on the track. This is what I want any combo I build to be able to do. I know that I may be be reaching....but I want 500 NA horspower windsor on 91 oct gas and I want the longivity of a bone stocker.
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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly
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radracing - 6:55 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
well thats what I want to know about stroker kits what I'm hearing is the eagle makes the best kit.for 302 or 351W alot of peple have tryed differant kits and and had no long term use out of them we are not easy on our motors because we drag race them we come out of the line at6500-7000 and shift at 7200 just because our top loader won't shift above that. our little 302 we have now makes HP up to 8300rpm no problem yet after 1 1/2 years on the track the leak down is still under 10% can a stroker do this? anybody run a stroke hard and what does it look like have you ran a leak down on it
Alan
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n2omike - 7:15 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
Being limited to 7200rpm is even more of a reason to go the 351W route. A stroker 351W will pull your b*lls off... and won't want shifted much over 6000rpm.
They last a LONG time that way.
Good Luck!
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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3
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Ron1 - 11:19 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
One thing i forgot to mention in my other posts. I was VERY impressed with jd's performance where i bought my kit. He called, asked questions, talked with the machine shop. Then to top it off, he delivered on the day he said he would, and the cost was as quoted and at the best price. He took care of the custom pistons from Ross and put together a package he felt would work, using all the top manufacturers in the business. You can find them at http://www.jdsperformance.com or you should call and talk to Dave. Tell him Ron said to call.
BTW...the hp level he predicted? Almost right on the money.
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racer7088 - 11:22 pm on Nov. 16, 2001
qtrhors,
I know your just going with the flow but it is mostly internet rumor. I have been looking at this now for two years and I've seen 3 347 motors go over 100K now. They run fine and one had bad guides and when that was fixed the motor seemed new again! One was built in the old days by Ronnie Crawford and one was by Ron Anderson and the last was by a local shop here in Houston.
That local 347 had Pinto rods and they are only like 5.2 inches! This engine was almost ten years old. That car was in to have a piston fixed because of NOS and it turned out to have cracked a place in the intake port near the pushrod that was sucking oil and had two slightly bent exhaust valves. There was still nothing wrong with the bottom end. It honed out nice and we reused the pistons which were all right side chevy manley pistons or something. It cleaned up easy.
When I was first here in Houston I also helped a guy freshen a 347 that was built by KC and that one had 48,000 miles on it. It also was in great shape but the tfs tw heads had several loose guides that were causing the smoking and after putting k-liners in it and new seals the shortblock leaked down at 7 per cent on all cylinders and this guy used a 100 shot a lot!
I'm not really worried anymore and I used to be really concerned.
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Erik Koenig
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