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Discussion Starter #1
Hey All,
With the advent of Lorrie Van Haul finally being street legal, and apparently reliable enough to become the daily driver around here, it has become time to start giving Ms. American 3.14159 some much needed attention.

She has been difficult to start after sitting for four or five days, needing some amount of priming with Gasoline in the Carburetor till she starts getting enough Gas from the Antique Holley 4150. Am thinking that somehow the Gasoline in the Float Bowls either drains back to the Fuel Pump, or evaporates which leaves the Float Bowls empty. It takes a bit of priming to get the Engine to run enough to get the Fuel Pump to fill the Float Bowls.

Then Friday, a week ago LAST Friday, on the way home from Livingston, the 3.14's Engine just quit firing. It coasted for about ten seconds then started up again. It did that twice that day.

So it was known that something was going on.

Last Monday morning, Ms. American was started up, and brought up to operating temperature. Just wanted to make sure that she WOULD start.

Proceeded to install a NEW set of Points, and a NEW Condenser in her Distributor, and get her to where she would just start right up.

Alas, just the opposite occurred. Once the NEW Points&Condenser were installed, there was absolutely no Ignition Fire.

The test that Gary said to run was to use a Test Light to see if the Points were getting 12 Volts from the Coil.

The test setup was to be:
Battery: CONNECTED.

Ignition Key: ON.

Points in the Distributor: OPEN.

Ground the Test Light Alligator Clip, and touch the (+) Pole of the Battery with the Test Light Probe.

If one gets a Light, then the Ground is GOOD.

Next, touch each of the Points with the Test Light Probe.

If this gets a Light, then one knows that the points are getting 12 Volts.

If this gets NO Light, then the Coil is not passing 12 Volts to the Points.

After doing this test, the Wire that comes FROM the Ignition Switch TO the (+) Terminal of the Ignition Coil was tested.

The Probe was touched to the Fitting connected to the Ignition Coil's (+) Terminal.

There was NO Light there either.

Doesn't it make sense that if there is NO light when probing the end of the Wire FROM the Ignition Switch, that the problem COULD be the Ignition Switch?

So the next thing is to learn is how to do an Ignition Switch Diagnostic.

Anyway, it's supposed to rain here sometime today. Ms. American is already under her Plastic&Tarp.

Am in leisure mode here for the rest of the day.

Am gradually getting the place un-neglected and me rested up.

Hope you all are well.

JC
 

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Ignition Key: ON.

Points in the Distributor: OPEN.

Ground the Test Light Alligator Clip, and touch the (+) Pole of the Battery with the Test Light Probe.
yep!
If one gets a Light, then the Ground is GOOD.
precisely
Next, touch each of the Points with the Test Light Probe.
only necessary to test the Coil side of the points when the light is grounded to battery, that is where the power comes from the coil to.
If this gets a Light, then one knows that the points are getting 12 Volts.
clamp test light ground to the Dist lip, then with key ON hold light poker tip on Coil + If light then your IGN source from Key is working. If no light then Ignition switch test should be attempted, or simply follow wire into loom and test along the way for the break
If this gets NO Light, then the Coil is not passing 12 Volts to the Points.
only if you are testing coil side of points with test light gator clip on a good ground.
After doing this test, the Wire that comes FROM the Ignition Switch TO the (+) Terminal of the Ignition Coil was tested.
with key in RUN position you should have the test light giving a positive signal to your retinal cavity
The Probe was touched to the Fitting connected to the Ignition Coil's (+)

Terminal.There was NO Light there either.
That sir means an interruption of voltage delivered to coil One more test you can perform is this:

Gator to ground.

Test light tip to Coil + (red wire green stripe)

Watch light as you CRANK the 3.14. It should flash (albeit somewhat weakly)

With a flash that tells you that the Solenoid is properly sending crank voltage to coil. If the light Goes OUT when you Release key to RUN position, then your Resistor wire or it's splice into the red wire at the firewall are bad, or your ignition switch is bad.

Testing Ignition switch at dash with test light is easy.

Ground light. Poke the Red wire with Green stripe, and turn key to Crank. If no light then you need to clean or replace ignition switch.
 

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All correct, but let me add to something for my own happiness LOL it's pretty much the same thing Gary told you but a different tactic

1 - Focus only on the positive side of the coil for now, once there is stable power, you can look at the negative side

2 - The positive side should be hot when the ignition switch is in the RUN position, somewhat less than 12V, so expect a test light to be a bit dimmer through the resistor. However, testing it in the run position only tests the RUN circuit, there is a second circuit

3 - The positive side of the coil is fed from a different circuit when cranking. It does NOT go through the switch during crank, its a straight shot from the I terminal (second small terminal on the solenoid furthest from the battery cable and closest to the starter cable) That is full 12V and direct from the solenoid, so it doesn't care what the switch is doing as long as the switch is kicking in the solenoid

So, if the motor does indeed turn over with the key, you should have power to the positive side of the coil regardless of the ignition switch condition.

If you do not have power to the positive side of the coil in either CRANK or RUN, the problem has to be in the wiring somewhere after the point that those two circuits meet.

If you have power at the positive side of the coil during CRANK but not during RUN, then it could be the resistor wire in the circuit, or the ignition switch itself (which sounds likely because it was shutting off on you intermittently)

And yes, ignition switches can go bad in 50 year old vehicles, often becoming intermittent and then doing goofy things :)
 

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My test covers what you just said...

Oh never mind, you're still active duty, redundancy is in your blood :) LOL ;)

P.S. The Ignition switch DOES get voltage it get's feedback form the I terminal during cranking. Only a one way diode would prevent that. The pink wire and brown wire and Red wire with Green stripe all come together just prior to the coil +. So, batt + WILL be there in the CRANK mode no matter what the circumstances if all is well.
 

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My test covers what you just said...

Oh never mind, you're still active duty, redundancy is in your blood :) LOL ;)

P.S. The Ignition switch DOES get voltage it get's feedback form the I terminal during cranking. Only a one way diode would prevent that. The pink wire and brown wire and Red wire with Green stripe all come together just prior to the coil +. So, batt + WILL be there in the CRANK mode no matter what the circumstances if all is well.

OK then, you have the jet....please get him through this in under 20 pages LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Only necessary to test the Coil side of the points when the light is grounded to battery.
Hey Gary,
The Test Light was not grounded to the Battery. It was clipped to the Oil Filler Spout. When the Probe was touched to the (+) Pole of the Battery, got a Light, so know that the Ground was good.

that is where the power comes from the coil to.
Am still not clear about which part of the Points to touch with the Probe, so just tried them both, and neither of them produced a Light.

clamp test light ground to the Dist lip,
"Lip"? "Nipples"? Gary are you sure we are talking about the same KIND of Gals? :)

then with key ON, hold light poker tip (Probe?) on Coil +. If light, then your IGN source from Key is working.
Alright. Did something LIKE this, but the Alligator Clip was not Grounded to the Distributor. It was Grounded to the Oil Filler Spout. There was no Light when the (+) Terminal on the Ignition Coil was touched with the Probe with the Key in the Run position.

Couldn't the Alligator Clip be put on the (+) Terminal of the Ignition Coil and the Probe touched to the Distributor Case to see if it would Light?

If no light then Ignition switch test should be attempted.
Got out the 1964 Ford and Mercury Shop Manual. Was hoping to find a good expostulation on the Ignition Switch. Couldn't find any reference to the Ignition Switch anywhere in the Manual.

or simply follow wire into loom and test along the way for the break only if you are testing coil side of points with test light gator clip on a good ground.
Alright.

with key in RUN position you should have the test light giving a positive signal to your retinal cavity.
Alright.

That sir, means an interruption of voltage delivered to coil.
What "means an interruption of voltage delivered to the Ignition Coil"?

One more test you can perform is this:

Gator to ground.

Test light tip to Coil + (red wire green stripe)

Watch light as you CRANK the 3.14. It should flash (albeit somewhat weakly)

With a flash that tells you that the Solenoid is properly sending crank voltage to coil.
Alright.

If the light Goes OUT when you Release key to RUN position, then your Resistor wire or it's splice into the red wire at the firewall are bad,
Don't think it has anything to do with the wiring.

OR your ignition switch is bad.
Am tending to thing that it is a malfunctioning Ignition Switch.

Testing Ignition switch at dash with test light is easy.

Ground light. Poke the Red wire with Green stripe, and turn key to Crank.

If no light then you need to clean or replace ignition switch.
Alright.

Will be out tomorrow morning to do all these tests. Will let you know the results.

JC
 

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OK JIM, I suggested gator gripping to the Dist. because Sometimes the Dist. can be a floating ground which becomes 'ungrounded' at times. And cleaning the clamp usually remedies this, but the oil spout placement you used is 100% OK to do this, after all a ground is a ground.

What I meant when I said it means an interruption of voltage" simply means that you had no voltage....

The COLORS of wires I told you to test in your ignition switch are the ones that deal with your Coil and your Crank.

The back of your IGN switch has 3 terminals, one of which has a Red wire with Green stripe.
That wire goes about 4 inches and splices into the Pink Resistor wire, which goes to the Firewall Plug and the Opposite side of the Firewall plug (the under hood side) that Wire there Becomes a Red wire with Green stripe again, which there or a few inches farther is joined by the Brown wire that comes off the I terminal of the starter Solenoid, and the Red wire continues it's trek to the Coil +.

OK all that said.

The TEST is simple, since all 3 Wires are connected and + MUST show some kind of power in the cranking position you simply REMOVE the I terminal brown wire at solenoid.
Go under Dash.
Ground test light.
Poke Red wire with Green Stripe.
Turn key to Crank.
LIGHTING UP test light means GOOD ignition switch and your issue is in the resistor wire or one of the connections between IGN switch and the Coil+.

Now taking into consideration that your Solenoid is GOOD, While Cranking you should get a FLASHING or constant pulse to the coil +, even with a failing condenser.

ANd in no way sense or form did I say Titties nor Nipples in this thread. SO stop trying to distract me :)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
All correct, but let me add to something for my own happiness LOL it's pretty much the same thing Gary told you but a different tactic:

1 - Focus only on the positive side of the coil for now, once there is stable power, you can look at the negative side
Hey Mr. M4S,
Alright.

2 - The positive side should be hot when the ignition switch is in the RUN position, somewhat less than 12V, so expect a test light to be a bit dimmer through the resistor.
With the Key in the ON/RUN Position, there was no Light when the Probe was touched to the (+) Terminal of the Ignition Coil with the alligator clip hooked to a proven ground.

However, testing it in the run position only tests the RUN circuit, there is a second circuit:

3 - The positive side of the coil is fed from a different circuit when cranking. It does NOT go through the switch during crank, its a straight shot from the I terminal (second small terminal on the solenoid furthest from the battery cable and closest to the starter cable)
Alright. This was known.

That is full 12V and direct from the solenoid, so it doesn't care what the switch is doing as long as the switch is kicking in the solenoid.
This is understood.

So, if the motor does indeed turn over with the key, you should have power to the positive side of the coil regardless of the ignition switch condition.
The Engine cranks when the Ignition Switch is turned to Start, AND the Engine has taken to firing, but then it won't run. Indication that the Voltage from the Solenoid is there, but not the RUN Voltage from the Ignition Switch.

This trying to start but not running gets done a number of times before the Engine will actually catch and begins running.

If you do not have power to the positive side of the coil in either CRANK or RUN, the problem has to be in the wiring somewhere after the point that those two circuits meet.
OR in the Ignition Switch.

If you have power at the positive side of the coil during CRANK but not during RUN, then it could be the resistor wire in the circuit, or the ignition switch itself (which sounds likely because it was shutting off on you intermittently).
YES!!!

And yes, ignition switches can go bad in 50 year old vehicles, often becoming intermittent and then doing goofy things :)
This one didn't do anything goofy, but it DID become intermittent and NOW probably totally non-functional.

Will be checking on the Ignition Switch tomorrow morning.

Have looked up 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 Ignition Switches complete with two Keys, and have found that they are Parts Number C3AZ11572-A, available at the local NAPA as Parts Number ECH K56457. And they're NOT expensive.

Anyway, will get back to you on test results.

Between YOU, Gary, and me, we ought to get Ms. American to where she will start right up like Lorrie does now.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #10
My test covers what you just said...

Oh never mind, you're still active duty, redundancy is in your blood :) LOL ;)
Hey Gary,
The more input, the better. How well I learn is an indication of how well you guys teach. So far, am following you pretty closely. Sometimes YOUR syntax is a bit strange, but that's alright. If I don't understand something, will ask for clarification.

P.S. The Ignition switch DOES get voltage. It gets feedback from the I terminal during cranking. Only a one way diode would prevent that.
"One way diode"?

The pink wire and brown wire and Red wire with Green stripe all come together just prior to the coil +. So, batt + WILL be there in the CRANK mode no matter what the circumstances if all is well.
Alright. Will have to track down: The Pink Wire; The Brown Wire; and The Red Wire w/ the Green Stripe.

Am going to take the Wires off of the antique Mallory Ignition coil, and clean the Fittings. That hasn't been done for five or six year now.

Will let you know what is found.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK then, you have the jet....please get him through this in under 20 pages LOL
Hey Mr M4S,
"Under twenty pages"? Surely you jest! :)

This thread involves getting Ms. American to start easily. A measly twenty pages won't even begin to make THAT happen.

This first part (the Start&Run Electrical System) is just the BEGINNING.

The NEXT part is going to be getting the antique Holley 4150 Carburetor off of the Manifold, and the completely restored Autolite 4100 installed. And THAT involves changing over to the NEW Proper&Correct Heater Hose, and hooking up the renovated Heater/Defroster Unit.

It's going to take all THAT to make Ms. American start easily.

It will be an interesting journey.

You'll see.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #16
OK JIM, I suggested gator gripping to the Dist. because Sometimes the Dist. can be a floating ground which becomes 'ungrounded' at times. And cleaning the clamp usually remedies this
Hey Gary,
Should probably clean the Clamp.

but the oil spout placement you used is 100% OK to do this, after all a ground is a ground.
Yes.

What I meant when I said it means an interruption of voltage" simply means that you had no voltage....
Alright.

The COLORS of wires I told you to test in your ignition switch are the ones that deal with your Coil and your Crank.
Alright.

The back of your IGN switch has 3 terminals, one of which has a Red wire with Green stripe.
That wire goes about 4 inches and splices into the Pink Resistor wire, which goes to the Firewall Plug and the Opposite side of the Firewall plug (the under hood side) that Wire there Becomes a Red wire with Green stripe again, which there or a few inches farther is joined by the Brown wire that comes off the I terminal of the starter Solenoid, and the Red wire continues it's trek to the Coil +.

OK all that said.

The TEST is simple, since all 3 Wires are connected and + MUST show some kind of power in the cranking position you simply REMOVE the I terminal brown wire at solenoid.
Go under Dash.
Ground test light.
Poke Red wire with Green Stripe.
Turn key to Crank.
LIGHTING UP test light means GOOD ignition switch and your issue is in the resistor wire or one of the connections between IGN switch and the Coil+.
Will do this tomorrow morning.

Now taking into consideration that your Solenoid is GOOD, While Cranking you should get a FLASHING or constant pulse to the coil +, even with a failing condenser.
Alright.

And in no way sense or form did I say Titties nor Nipples in this thread. SO stop trying to distract me :)
Wasn't questioning "Titties". Was questioning the "Lips" in the response, and the "Nipples" of a few days ago.

Have just never used those terms in reference to the 3.14, although there has been times that I've been lying under Ms. American, and noticed what a nice, tight Rear End she has! :)

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Jim, about your IGN switch. Very often it's as simple as the backing coming loose.
Hey Gary,
It's strange that you should say that, because while doing some research on the Ignition Switch, saw a shot of the Socket that fits onto the back of the Ignition Switch, and wondered if THAT might have come askew.

You can often remove the switch from the dash, Turn it over, Press down on the Bakelite center, and re-crimp the 3 divots that hold the Bakelite in place, for another 50 years of faithful service. FE
Will check this out tomorrow morning.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Did I say something strange or are ALL diodes one way? I'm electrically retarded sometimes.
Hey Gary,
No, no, no... I meant: What the hell is a diode?

JC
 
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