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Discussion Starter #1
Hey All,
This is going to be a "straight skinny" technical thread concerning the efficacy of the Frantz Oil Cleaner Oil Filtration System as used on Ms. American 3.14159.

To start with, here are the unresponded to posts from another thread:

Gary wrote:
Wesley, Get me an address to send a sample of JC's 23 year old motor oil and send it in for analysis.

I REALLY want to know what the results are. The oil in it now was put in in 1989....

11 oil filter changes ago if he kept to a 3K mile schedule, meaning that the current 5 quarts is about a total of ten whole years old give or take a year.
Hey Gary,
While this is pretty much an accurate synopsis of the situation, there should probably be a much more specific summary of the history of Ms. American's 3.14's (that's the Engine) lubrication history, for it has in some cases varied from the "straight&narrow" path that would have been the "theoretical" ideal.

Will supply that summary as best as it can be remembered.

It MIGHT be efficacious to include Lorrie Van Haul's history also, as HER mighty 225 Slant Six Engine was rebuilt in 1986, and she too has a Frantz Oil Cleaner System,

Her oil has not been changed since NEW oil was put in when the Engine was rebuilt. AND it includes having sat while Lorrie was in her sixteen year long coma.

Wesley wrote:
Am I to understand that he has never added a drop since 1989?

NO. Whenever the Paper Roll Element is changed, there is a certain amount of oil that "lost". That oil is replaced to bring the oil level on the Dip Stick to the "topped off" mark.

I have yet to find a car that won't use a bit of oil, no matter how small, over time. This seems implausible to me
As far as I can discern, the 3.14 doesn't "burn" oil. But this is not to say that there is NOT some oil loss. Have noticed that there is some seepage around where the Frantz Oil Cleaner System Adapter is screwed onto where the "regular" Oil Filter goes. There is always a "drop" of oil on the bottom of the Adapter and after sitting for a while (some amount of days) there is a Oil Spot on the pavement under the Adapter.

Also, over the years the Hose FROM the Adapter TO the Frantz Canister, and the Hose FROM the Frantz Canister back to the BLOCK have managed to develop a leak of a minute amount of oil at their fittings.

BUT, this is all watched carefully. The oil level is checked before going anywhere because the hood has to be lifted to connect the Quick Disconnect Fitting on the Negative Pole of the Battery. This fitting was installed because there is a "slow" leak of electricity somehwhere in the system, and thus whenever the 3.14 is shut down, the Battery is disconnected. I keep a terry cloth rag between the Battery and the Inner Fender, and when hooking up the Battery to go somewhere, it has just become part of the routine to check the level of the oil on the Dip Stick. If it perchance below the topped off Mark on the Dip Stick, it is noted. And over the amount of time that it takes to get to the Add Mark on the Dip Stick, then a quart of oil gets added.

Also, right after changing the Paper Roll Element, and the Engine is started and the system checked for leaks, when the 3.14 is shut down, and is let to sit. Before the next start up, the oil is checked and due to the oil that has been used to soak up into the NEW Paper Roll, there is an amount of oil needed to bring the Dip Stick up to the topped off mark.

Deb wrote:
I thought he had to or did change it when doing his last caper with rocker adjustments and such but maybe i got lost in the caper shenanigans.
Not that I recall. There was no oil lost during the rocker adjustments.

Dusty wrote:
My understanding is JC when he does his filter change, does the filter change and drops 1 new quart in to replace the loss of oil in the filter...
Actually, there is no oil lost in the element change. It is done in the morning with the 3.14 cold, having sat overnight. The Oil in the canister would have run back into the Engine. Where there IS a loss of oil is when the NEW Element soaks up as much oil as it holds in suspension. THAT has to be replaced. It is maybe a pint.

FE I would love to see/hear the results on his oil also.. Might even make the labs say hmmmmm or BS whichever...lol
That's what we will find out! :)

Wesley wrote:
Ah, see that's how I remember the oil cleaner systems working, you top up when you change the filter and whenever needed by oil consumption - the added oil tops up the additives and maintains the viscosity, allowing the extended usage so it's not a closed system. Run properly, they work fine.
Right.

BTW, during the latter part of Spring, through the Summer and half way through Autumn, the 3.14 get 50 weight Valvoline Racing Oil. From Autumn through Winter and half way into Spring, the 3.14 gets 10W40 Valvoline Racing Oil.

Upon startup, the 3.14's RPMs are kept at a point where the Oil Pressure Gauge reads no more than 80 PSI. At operating temperature, with a 160 degree thermostat, the 3.14 runs at from 160 to 195 degrees depending on the ambient temperatures. After running at 195, upon parking the Temperature Gauge can indicate as much as 220 degrees, but it goes right back down to 195 as soon as the 3.14 is restarted. Also, on the highway, the Oil Pressure is between 60 and 65 PSI, dropping to as low as 35 PSI while idling.

Alright, here are some specifics about the oil history since 1989. There have been times when the 3,000 miles between Paper Roll Elements have been made in a matter of a week. Trips from her to California and Back being those instances. There have over the past five to eight years been months elapse between Paper Roll Element changes due to not driving Ms. American, or driving her very little. And there was an instance maybe ten years ago when the Canister was not properly locked down (my bad), and some oil was lost due to THAT. It took three quarts to replace what was lost. But other than that, what Gary said in his synopsis of the history of the 3.14's oil changes is pretty much the way that it has gone.

There needs to be made mention of something here also that is a recent development. As you all know we've been doing the Autolite 4100 Installation Caper. And since the middle of November, the 3.14 has spent most of its time running in an attempt to get the 4100 dialed in. We've been through a bunch of wackiness, and I don't know WHY this is, but I've noticed that the color of the Oil on the Dipstick is slightly darker than it usually is, but it is still clear, and looks like NEW oil except for the slightly darker cast.

Am going to change the Paper Roll Element. Acquired the 10W40 Valvoline Racing Oil yesterday. The level on the Dip Stick is showing that it would take a pint to top off the level, and so by the time that the New Paper Roll Element is in place, the 3.14 run to check for leaks, it will take a quart to bring the oil level back up to the topped off mark.

So where do we go from here. Let the test begin.

How much oil does a laboratory need to run the proper test? We should probably start with a sample of the oil as the 3.14 sits right now. Then change the Element, top off the Dip Stick and then obtain another sample. And maybe get a sample from Lorrie's oil also.

Will do whatever is decided.

JC
 

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think the charge said it was 25 dollars per analysis. The kits are sent free gratis...
 

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There needs to be made mention of something here also that is a recent development. As you all know we've been doing the Autolite 4100 Installation Caper. And since the middle of November, the 3.14 has spent most of its time running in an attempt to get the 4100 dialed in. We've been through a bunch of wackiness, and I don't know WHY this is, but I've noticed that the color of the Oil on the Dipstick is slightly darker than it usually is, but it is still clear, and looks like NEW oil except for the slightly darker cast.

Am going to change the Paper Roll Element. Acquired the 10W40 Valvoline Racing Oil yesterday.

JC
Why have you chosen Racing Oil for a street engine?

The discolor you see in the oil is fuel, either spent or unspent.
 

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JC,

Do you use store bought toilet tissue or the FRANTZ specialty filters? Plain or flower design... :)
Not just any toilet paper is appropriate for the Frantz Oil Filter. Certainly, do not use the squeezable, soft, and fuzzy paper you enjoy in your moments alone. The best paper to use is that which is wound tightly, has the correct size cardboard tube both diameter and length, and is firm and hard to the squeeze.

We recommend the Frantz "Select" filter paper in which every single roll is shrink-wrapped and labeled with a weatherproof sticker for your storage cabinet or toolbox.
Toilet Paper Oil Filter?

CAUTION!

DO NOT use John Wayne toilet tissue as it is rough, tough and takes shiat off nobody... :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Why have you chosen Racing Oil for a street engine?
Hey Mr. K,
When the 3.14 was rebuilt in 1989, we used an additive that had Zinc in it. And then later, it was found that the Valvoline Racing Oil had Zinc in it while the non Racing Oil didn't. For no more Oil than the 3.14 uses, I just started purchasing Valvoline Racing Oil.

The discolor you see in the oil is fuel, either spent or unspent.
REALLY? Is THAT going to be a problem?

When the OLD Fuel Pump fritzed, it MIGHT have put gasoline into the Oil Pan. That was mentioned at the time. I checked the Dip Stick for the odor of gasoline, but there wasn't any as far as I could tell.

Have been running the 3.14 while tuning the 4100 and have detected no evidence that it is being damaged.

JC
 

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When the 3.14 was rebuilt in 1989, we used an additive that had Zinc in it. And then later, it was found that the Valvoline Racing Oil had Zinc in it while the non Racing Oil didn't. For no more Oil than the 3.14 uses, I just started purchasing Valvoline Racing Oil.
You realize racing oils do not (most likely do not) contain the same detergent/dispersant packages that API classified oils do?

  1. What are the benefits to using a racing oil versus a regular "street legal" oil?

    The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" racing oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.
SOURCE- Valvoline.com > FAQs > Motor Oil Car FAQs > Racing Oil


Regarding overly rich fuel condition-

REALLY? Is THAT going to be a problem?
It most likely will be at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
JC, Do you use store bought toilet tissue
Hey Mr. K,
As a matter of fact, my Father gave me a couple of cases of what it called "Truly Fine" Two-Ply, Facial Quality Tissue which WAS the Safeway Store Brand. It was one of the recommended brands back before Frantz began marketing their own Paper Roll Elements.

or the FRANTZ specialty filters?
Haven't ever used the Frantz Brand.

Plain or flower design... :)
It's plain AND unscented.

Toilet Paper Oil Filter?

Have had a number of people tell me that the toilet paper will disintegrate and clog up the oil passages in an Engine, but have not in all the years of using it had any evidence that THAT was even remotely possible.

There IS another reason to use the Frantz Paper Roll Elements though, and that is mentioned in the above referenced URL, and it is that the Toilet Paper makers have, in order to increase profits, changed the diameter of the cardboard tube in their products so that they are still the same diameter on the outside of the roll, but contain a larger hole, thus taking less paper to make up a roll of the same diameter.

The solution that Frantz came up with in order to deal with THAT was a little stamped fitting that was the Frantz Canister's Central Tube's outside diameter as its inside diameter, and the bigger diameter of the cardboard tube's inside diameter as its outside diameter.

I have a number of those little fittings, but since I still have more than a case of Truly Fine, they are not used.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #9
this is an awesome thread!
Hey Gary,
Aren't they all? :)

So we can technically call it 13 and a half oil changes since 1989 if my extrapolation and desk top thoughts are accurate.
Sure! Why NOT?

Gary, Mr. K has me all concerned now about gasoline in the 3.14's oil. Are we treading on some shaky ground here?

How to find out if there is gasoline in the oil. Maybe put a butane lighter to the dip stick?

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #11
any fuel in the oil will rapidly evaporate and be removed by the pcv sys. when the engine gets warm
Hey Mr. GZ,
Then there is probably nothing about which to worry?

The Engine has been heated up many times since the Fuel Pump that MIGHT have dumped some Fuel into the Oil Pan fritzed.

JC
 

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all engnes get some fuel in the oil. during cold start some passes the rings. this is the main reason for pcv. instead of the hc's evaporating into the atmosphere, they are drawn into the manifold and burned
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Your Fuel pump WAS NOT LEAKING. It simply wasn't pumping enough fuel to keep you running. This is a very different fail than an internal rupture of a diaphragm.
Hey Gary,
NEGATIVE! The damned thing was leaking fuel onto the pavement through the blown gasket in the interstice between the Fuel Pump Flange and the machined surface where the Fuel Pump mounts to the Block of the 3.14.

Had the Gasket not leaked, ALL of the gas that went onto the pavement would have gone into the Oil Pan. No one KNOWS how much of it went into the Oil Pan.

I checked the Oil for gasoline odor, but couldn't smell any, and so I concluded at that time that ALL the gasoline that was leaking from above the Fuel Pump Diaphragm had leaked onto the pavement, but I don't know THAT for sure.

And then this afternoon in response to my saying that the Oil was a little darker than usual, Mr. K. said that the darkness was the result of fuel in the Oil.

Then Mr. GZ said that it would evaporate out.

Still, it's not good to have gasoline in the Engine oil.

JC
 

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Discussion Starter #15
all engnes get some fuel in the oil. during cold start some passes the rings. this is the main reason for pcv. instead of the hc's evaporating into the atmosphere, they are drawn into the manifold and burned
Hey Mr. GZ,
Maybe THAT'S what's been making the 3.14 run so rich! :)

JC
 

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The PCV System is designed to ventilate a crankcase to a certain point. If there is excessive fuel in the oil (too rich of a mixture or mechanical fuel pump failure say) the system will not (cannot) pull out the fuel contained within the engine oil, only the resultant crankcase vapors as a result of. The engine oil is thinned and compromised until an effective repair is done.

JC, you say you are going to have an analysis done. That result will let you know the condition of the oil. If it has become a heavier color than before with your present filtering system (and with no subsequent oil change), there has to be a reason.

Also, a crankcase heavy with gasoline dilution will produce a very rich fuel vapor that will upset the carburetor balance when vapors are drawn into the combustion process. This is especially true on late EFI Systems.

If there was a mechanical fuel pump failure that dumped fuel into the crankcase, the oil should have been changed with the repair at that point.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The PCV System is designed to ventilate a crankcase to a certain point. If there is excessive fuel in the oil (too rich of a mixture or mechanical fuel pump failure say) the system will not (cannot) pull out the fuel contained within the engine oil, only the resultant crankcase vapors as a result of. The engine oil is thinned and compromised until an effective repair is done.
Hey Mr. K,
What is hoped is that the temperature of the Engine will evaporate the fuel in the oil and the PCV system will remove the evaporated fuel.

JC, you say you are going to have an analysis done.
Am willing to at least supply the oil sample from the 3.14's Frantz Oil Cleaner equipped lubrication system.

That result will let you know the condition of the oil. If it has become a heavier color than before with your present filtering system (and with no subsequent oil change), there has to be a reason.
It has been "normal" for the oil in the 3.14's Frantz Oil Cleaner equipped lubrication system to take on a slightly darker cast than the NEW oil. But the other day when checking the Dip Stick, it was noticed that the oil had taken on an ever "slightly" darker than usual. BUT, it was still "transparent", and of the same viscosity as usual.

Also, a crankcase heavy with gasoline dilution will produce a very rich fuel vapor that will upset the carburetor balance when vapors are drawn into the combustion process. This is especially true on late EFI Systems.
Can see where that would be a possibility.

If there was a mechanical fuel pump failure that dumped fuel into the crankcase, the oil should have been changed with the repair at that point.
There WAS a Mechanical Fuel Pump Failure, but along with the Pump failure was also a Gasket Failure, and at the time that this happened, there was a leak FROM the failed Gasket onto the pavement under the Fuel Pump. If fuel got into the Oil Pan, it would have had to have done so BEFORE the Gasket failed, which is a definite possibility.

But the 3.14 has been running since THAT happened, and the oil on the Dip Stick appears to be the same viscosity as usual.

Am going to be changing the Filtering Element in the Frantz Oil Cleaner today, as the weather guessers are saying that the rain is supposed to clear out of here mid-morning.

Will be spending today preparing Ms. American for her trip to the Inspection Station. If everything goes as planned, will be going to the Inspection Station tomorrow morning.

Will, of course, keep the updates coming.

JC
 
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