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Discussion Starter #1
I have a pair of 65 289 heads, they're early heads with no thermactor. I have a friend at machine shop who is doing all my machine work for next to nothing. With valves and springs, threaded rocker studs, and completely rebuilt I'm only paying $300. So it's a good deal. I want to put 351 windsor valves in them. My guy told me that factory 351 valves are longer than the stock 289''s. I tried to research it, and it seems like 289 is 5.03 and 351 is 5.075. Between adjustable rockers and playing with push rod length should it be an issue?
 

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I've never done it to a 289 head but theoretically it seams you could, you will need to pay attention to the installed height of the valve springs as well.
But my question is what size valves are you using 351s came with two sizes and the ports in the 289 heads are very small.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm using the early big valve 351 sizes they are 1.84 and 1.54. More than anything installed height is my concern.
 

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I measured the valve length in the 289 heads that I use to run... They were only 4.95" intake and 4.96" exhaust. They are 1.94"/1.60" oversize stainless valves. There is a range of valve heights you can get to work. As long as you're close to stock, you should be able to get decent valvetrain geometry as long as you do some diligent checking to determine the proper length pushrods.

This being said, simply installing larger valves will do nothing for the engine if the bowls and chamber are not opened up as well. The area one inch above and below the valve seat are where 80% of the flow improvements will come from when dealing with stock heads. You'll also need to verify piston to valve clearance, as some piston notches are not wide enough.

Good Luck
 

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I personally think it is somewhat of a wasted effort, it's like putting a putting a 20' door on a single stall garage.
The heads will only flow what the small ports will flow.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
N20Mike, I agree with you 100% and I think my machinist thought I was still running them on a 289 so he was worried about the difference between 4.95 and 5.070. But I'm running these on a 302 so I think it shold be good. I just ordered the stock 1970 351w valves. How long of a stud should I order? And I'm guessing 3/8 diameter?
 

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N20Mike, I agree with you 100% and I think my machinist thought I was still running them on a 289 so he was worried about the difference between 4.95 and 5.070. But I'm running these on a 302 so I think it shold be good. I just ordered the stock 1970 351w valves. How long of a stud should I order? And I'm guessing 3/8 diameter?
My advice would be to get a decent set of NAME BRAND aftermarket heads. By the time you buy ALL the parts to rebuild yours, along with all the labor involved in finishing them... You'll either spend close to the cost of an aftermarket set, or even more depending on the parts you buy. If you have a small flat tappet cam (0.550" lift or less, not hydraulic roller) look at the Edelbrock E-Street heads. They are a good, name brand, brand new head set up with springs for a flat tappet cam. They will run circles around your old 289 units. Edelbrock part number 5023 has 1.90" intake valves and are most likely to play nice with your piston notches. Their 5034 has 2.02" valves, and would likely require you to flycut your valve reliefs. Below is a link to the 5023. $1034.50 Since these heads have 1/2" head bolt holes, you'll need stepped washers to use them on a 289/302 that has 7/16" head bolts. Edelbrock sells the washers for $68, but ARP offers a kit with washer AND brand new head bolts for $89! I'll post a link below. You'll also need hardened pushrods to work with guide plates and roller/roller tip rockers... which I'm assuming you would be purchasing anyway. There is a part number for the hardened pushrods in the link to the heads, but checking rocker geometry yourself would likely be the best route. (this is a necessary step regardless of the heads used)

I HIGHLY recommend you go this route instead of wrestling around with the old 289 heads. It's a losing financial battle. Plus, those 289 head have tiny 126 cc ports. The Edelbrock heads are 170 cc. Without MAJOR porting, the 289 heads are simply too small for a performance build.

To do the 289 heads, you need to buy:
Valves
Springs
Retainers
Keepers
Seals
Valve Guides
Guide Plates
Rocker Studs

You'll need to pay a machine shop to:
Pressure test/Magneflux heads
Cut out heads for the larger valves
Perform competition valve job
Open bowls to match new size valves
Install and ream valve guides
Machine heads for screw-in studs
Machine heads for guide plates
Machine heads for larger valve springs
Machine heads for positive valve seals
Surface Heads

....and you still end up with an old set of heads that is easily outrun by something that costs less in the long run, that will be sitting on your porch in a couple days from Summit. Trust me, I've been there. I did a set of 289 heads right before all the affordable aftermarket stuff started coming to market. I had $1,000 in my old 289 heads... and that was with me doing all the port work, and in 1990 dollars.

Edelbrock Heads

ARP Head bolts/washers

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I bought these heads from a junkyard in Elmira New York for $40 so I have no money in the purchase. Because I know the machinist, with valves parts and machine work Im in for a grand total of about $400. That's springs valve's, retainers, keepers, seals the whole 9. I'm figuring If they got 271hp out of a 289 with the same heads, I have to be able to make close to that with a modern cam, and a 302 block. I have a 77 short block which had just about the worst top end out there. I'm just looking for a compression bump along with a little more flow and eventually I lm going to get the heads ported but it's down the road. I found a porting company that specializes in porting cast heads for classes that dont allow alumimum heads. They want 350 to CNC port them, but they also said to get the heads built first. Its going in a light daily driver I'm expecting it to live between 1500 and 3000 rpm 99% of its life, so low end and mid range are key. If I can get in that 250-275 hp range I'll be happy any more I'll be extatic. If I was going with a stroker or something to make big numbers I'd blow 1500 on a good set of heads.

I appreciate your help and I'm not saying I know more or trying to be disrespectful in anyway, I'm just explaining the plan. I'm new to Fords, and you probably have a lot more experience on them than me. But this has been the recipe I've used in other smog motors to make a fun torquey daily driver. Am I way off?
 

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Mike and Iowan both gave you the best advice for power and cost. The discussion of "a little more flow" though, you really won't get any without a little extra work, maybe a smidge at low lift, especially if your guy will do a modern valve job and these are aftermarket valves, but if not, a barn door into a bathroom stall....

However, if you are just trying to get to new metal for sunk seats, and your guy is real cheap or buddy work, the extra length will likely only push you into a push rod change (assuming you will be running fully adjustable valve train, and even that only if you look at pattern, many guys don't) In fact, you never know, it could end up better with the valve stem length change

Some things twhen you go bigger though
  • Make sure you have radial clearance (outside diameter) with the pistons you use
  • Make sure you are checking installed height on the springs, as well as coil bind, open/closed pressures andvalve seal interference. Who knows with your valve combo if the locks are in a different height?
  • See if your guy will do a decent cut from the seat into the bowl, will not be as good as porting, but if you are adding big valves, if he can give a transition cut from seat into bowl, there can be gains there, same with anything he can do to sooth around the guide
In the end, remember, fast guys make power with heads....

I will also say don't discount that 350 dollar CnC porting. That's cheap money if you have a decent intake and headers mated to the heads

Some goofing around, a good "maximum" home build, meaning sharp guy, everything matching, is about 1.75 HP per cfm of intake flow for a street build, good idle vacuum. Real nice stuff with less limits can get to 2.0 or 2.2 hp per cfm

- Your heads - 165 cfm = 288-ish HP (if everything matches very well) so close to your goals, but only if everything is right

- Your heads CnC ported - 215 cfm = 376 HP (of course it takes a different level of "everything else", but you can see what heads do already)

- Trick Flow Street Heat - 255 cfm = 446 HP (again not saying these are your numbers, but that's what gettingdeep breathing heads does)

So let's say you gained 50 CFM with the 350 dollar CFM port (assuming you have the intake to support and headers behind it) . You have a capability for 80 HP more, even if it was 1/2 or that or a third of that, it's cheap money compared to other modifications

So, your respectful answer and budget build discussion is awesome and I am sure all the guys appreciate the humble attitude, often not seen in the hot rod circles, but just do your best to realize that there likely won't be a performance gain beyond a little torque from compression

Long winded, but one more.

I just did a 461 CJ, all iron, CnC ported heads, ported CJ intake, hidden stroker for a pure resto. We made 520 HP at 5800 RPM with a 237 duration single pattern cam, spread to 114 LSA. That's a REAL mild cam for a 461 inch engine. All the power was in the heads and intake. The build needed a mild cam to sound and act stock, ended up with 16 inches of vacuum and 650 RPM idle.

I have another one going on the dyno on the 15th, ALMOST exactly the same build, almost to a T. However, it has Trick Flow heads, a PI intake flowing 350-370 cfm per port.(Names ground off, entire engine will sorta look like a stock CJ with headers) I am expecting to make potentially 40 more HP and I dropped the cam down a step to 235 degree intake lobe. I am still concerned that I overcammed for my peak RPM (but it's a 3.91 street car with a 4 speed, so it'll still be mellow to drive) hitting my HP peak is more art than a requirement now LOL

It's all about airflow and matching parts
 

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I'm just looking for a compression bump along with a little more flow and eventually I lm going to get the heads ported but it's down the road.
What pistons does it have? Are they flat tops, or dish? I ported a set of 289 heads a good friend installed on a 302 way back when... His 302 had flat tops, and he was always battling detonation. Too much compression for the 224 @ 0.050" cam and pump gas. He bought a lot of octane booster.

If you're looking to get them ported, start with a set that is already done... the E-Street Edelbrocks.

I realize that you've already made up your mind... but for anyone else out there wanting to dive into a set of factory heads... Do yourself a favor, and skip all the hassle and expense of ending up with an inferior product for about the same cost of buying a new set.

Small Block Ford heads were originally designed for a 221 ci engine back in 1961... and never grew very much as they increased displacement to 260, 289, 302... and even 351ci. They're simply too small.

Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I'm glad you guys aren't taking this the wrong way, because a lot of guys just get insulted and start talking to you like you're an idiot. That's why I stopped trying to post on Facebook too many fools with the microphone.

Im using a stock 77 block. I got it from the junkyard the car showed 66000 on the odometer, but when I took the motor apart it was squeaky clean and had brand new bearings in it that were cut 10. I took the heads off it has flat tops with jvalve relieves cut out in them. Considering someone has been in the motor Im not really sure what Pistons they are I'm guessing their stock replacement. The Cam Kit I'm using is from Comp Cams I played around in camquest for a while and looked for the one that made the most power in the Power Band I was looking for. It's part number k31-234-3. 256/268 duration .477 .484 lift. And for now I'm just using some comp roller tip rockers.

The motor still has the stock 77 heads on it. My 65''s don't have thermactor bumps so I thought I'd get more flow just from having no thermactor bumps in the exhaust ports? Aren't port's the same size from the 302 to 289?

Right now the I'm running a c5 with c4 bellhousing and valve body, and an 8 inch rear with 3.00 gears. I'm trying to decide of I want 4.10 and an overdrive, or 3.40 and keep the c5. But because of the low gears I was trying to stay with a good grunty cam that has low and midrange torque rather than high peak numbers so it doesn't feel like a slug on take off.

As far as the manifold, for now I have a factory aluminum 83 Mustang dual plane manifold, I'll switch to an edelbrock when I get a few more bucks, and I'm debating between the Holler Pro-Jection 4 barrel tbi I have or a holley 600 I have in the parts bin, if I stay carb'd I'll probably switch to a 600 Edelbrock when I do the manifold. The distributor is a stock duraspark, unfortunately the guy I used to use to recurve my distributors died and I don't know where to bring it, doesn't seem like many people have sun machines anymore. I have MSD 8mm Wires, and a MSD blaster 2 coil.
 

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Im using a stock 77 block. I got it from the junkyard the car showed 66000 on the odometer, but when I took the motor apart it was squeaky clean and had brand new bearings in it that were cut 10. I took the heads off it has flat tops with jvalve relieves cut out in them. Considering someone has been in the motor Im not really sure what Pistons they are I'm guessing their stock replacement. The Cam Kit I'm using is from Comp Cams I played around in camquest for a while and looked for the one that made the most power in the Power Band I was looking for. It's part number k31-234-3. 256/268 duration .477 .484 lift. And for now I'm just using some comp roller tip rockers.
With the small 54.5 cc combustion chambers, you ARE going to battle detonation with your combo... even with 93 octane. STRONGLY advise the 60 cc chamber E-Street heads. Top the engine with a Performer RPM intake, a 600 carb, and call it 'good'. EFI is an option if you want to spend the money, but the carb will work just fine with a cheap/reliable mechanical fuel pump. Significant performance gain with the RPM over the 50+ year old design regular Performer or the factory intake that is currently on it. For the cost of EFI... Your money will go a LOT further investing in good cylinder heads.
 

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It's hard to explain just how piss pour stock Windsor heads are but the Edelbrock E street heads are worth 70 horse power over your stock heads on your mild build.

If your going to use you heads no matter what advice your given have screw it rocker studs installed in them. The factory rocker studs are pressed in and pull out with a little more than stock cam.
 

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77stang2
The problem you will encounter is the 351W valves were designed for use with rail rockers and are longer from the keeper groove up. When trying to use them with a non rail rocker , the geometry is way off. What we did "in the day" was use small block Chevy valves as they are very close in length to the 289 valves. They are also cheaper than 351W valves. As everyone has cautioned you. investing $$$s in those heads is like flushing $$$s down the toilet. ANY aftermarket head will out flow an iron head that has been ported. Flow tech has an inexpensive aluminum head that will work with future performance improvements.
 

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I remember a guy using the Chevy valves but 69-70 351 heads are what I remember being the hot ticket on a built 289. Probably all of 330 hp.
Having read your post on your plans for the motor one thing that's not clear is the pistons and rods, I'll assume that you are using the stock parts. The only problem is the rods are not meant for high rpms and only have 5/16" bolts. At the very least the rod bolts should be replaced with a quality part. Even then you have a 5500 rpm motor.
 
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