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Since this post was pretty active on the old Garage, I brought it over.

DynoTom - 2:26 am on Dec. 21, 2001

I guess before I was in a union I was not educated enough to know what they do?

My only exposure to a union was my citys workers,garbage and forestry,sewer,maintanace guys.

I know those guys get alot of "flak" for being "lazy asses" but I guess I though kind of the same way about them at one point?

I think the reason they got all the "crap" was because they were so visable to the public,and the public pays their wages!

So I think that exposure to a union gave me negative thoughts about all unions?

Im in one now,and I really like it!:D

I love that there is complete structure for every aspect of the job I do,and you cant just get fired if the owner has a bad day or something like that?

Are you guys in any unions?

Do you like it better than when you were not?

Im just wondering if you guys like yours or not,or if you like unions or not?

Thanks guys, Dyno Tom Harley-Davidson P.A.C.E. 7209 member.


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1995 F-350 XLT SuperCab DRW 460 EFI ~~~~~~~~~1991 Mustang GT 5-Liter 5-speed



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Gary79F250 - 3:22 am on Dec. 21, 2001

I am a Teamster, It is also the only reason i still have a job. I am currrently being charged for an DUI, that happend this summer. I was arrested bu 2 overzealous small town cops while moving a vehicle around in my driveway. I refused to take a breathalyser and subsequently my licence was suspended on scene. Long story short, union claims it is a hardship, i still will have m job once this gets thru the court's. hopefully within a month or two. In my opinion union's rock.



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Paxtonman - 7:10 am on Dec. 21, 2001

Well, this won't win any friends, I manage a non-union warehouse, our companies highest producing warehouse. The union's have tried for years to get my guys to vote and they refuse. Union's protect and defend the worthless. I have to deal with some union issues from one of our other facilities once in a while, and I can't see what the good members get out of it. Union's come in when you have bad management and the employee's need protection. One more thing about union's, ever notice the percentage of companies that go broke because of union's driving the wages out of control? There are 200 unemployed Sioux tool employees 60 miles away that wished they would have not gone on strike right now. They fought every 3 years and the company finally said enough. They moved to the Carolina's. My supervisors brother worked for Ford, his $30 an hour job was to stand there and put a paint stripe on defective cars going by, $30 an hour. Today my 99 Ranger is at the shop, no heat and this is the 3rd time it has been there for the same problem. I'll bet everyone of you has had a son or daughter with a bad teacher, ever try to do something about it? You can't touch a teacher, union to powerful, and most school administrators don't have the balls to do something about them.There was a time for union's but that time has passed.



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chilly460 - 9:46 am on Dec. 21, 2001

Well, this subject is a little touchy so hopefully nobody gets offended. I can't claim to have a huge amount of experience with unions, but I did work at GM for three months and learned quite a bit in that time. Basically as I see it, if I were an employee somewhere where a union was present, I'd be in it in a heartbeat. But, what makes it so enticing for the worker also makes it undesirable to the company. The higher wages, increased benefits, ability to file "grievances", etc. are a double edged sword.

Now, I think about the economic effect of unions. People claim that they are driving business out of the US, and I agree in some part. Part of the reason much of manufacturing moved overseas is due to the expensive labor in the States. BUT, the high wages give those same workers more buying power, which fuels the economy in other segments so I think it kind of evens out.



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qtrhors - 1:05 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

Ok Im jumping in on this.
Paxtonman...you are way off base when you say the times for unions is past.

Agreed that in some places they are not needed and some are poorly run. But the main reason unions came into existence still exists. That is..companies making huge profits off the field workers labor and only a handful upper management types/stock holders raking it in. Workers putting in 12 days 6 days a week and not even classified middle class is common still. But yet those workers companies are wealthy...this is crap.
Do you think those companies that go overseas
and use what amounts to slave labor bring the savings in labor to the consumer? If you believe that I have a bridge in New York City for sale cheap. No the profit margins just go up and only a handful of people share in it and certainly not the poor overseas worker...in fact this can lead to such things as hatred of rich corporate America...bringing on a violent "workers movement"....then we send our boys to put it down...think that is far fetched? It has already happened. Job safety and fatigue levels are huge probs in a lot of job areas. In a lot of cases the only concern for those 2 issues are addressed if it cost the company no money. Believe me I work for one of those companies. On my job people die when mistakes are made account unsafe working conditions and fatigue. As you stated yourself bad management brings need of unions...don't be fooled into believing there is no such thing as bad management. There are places still were organized workers are needed. I work in one of those places.

Tim West
Div 180
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers


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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly



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Johnny Ray - 1:42 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

I am a Proud Union Member of Local 974 out of East Peoria here.

I have 28 1/2 years at Caterpillar (19 of those years running a dyno!
) and when I hired in a Jan. 15th of 1973 Caterpillar told me that I could not work for them without joining the union.

Collective bargaining to me is just like collective reasoning and other collective efforts, we as a organized peoples, get much farther in life when keeping a 'we' attitude.

United We Stand
Divided We Fall



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69 Red Falcon-69 Green Sports Coupe Falcon




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chilly460 - 2:31 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

Cheap labor does = cheap goods. That's part of the reason we now have $400 stroker cranks to play with.

Johhny Ray, do you happen to know what happened at the plant in York, PA?



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Cobrajack - 3:38 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

My experience is limited but I do know that unions destroyed the textile industry and sent it packing to third world countries!!

The same thing is happening to the chemical industry though enviromentalists are certainly adding to our woes!!

Exorbitant profits are a thing of the past!! Therefore, $30.00/hr. jobs are not going to be there......Then who will support the unions??

I heard somewhere that dues can exceed $100.00/week??!! If true, unions are more profitable than the companies their members work for!!

My $.02 worth!!
Cobrajack

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Edited by: Cobrajack



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n2omike - 4:02 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

Unions came about for a reason... BUT, they have overextended themselves.

If YOU owned a large company, where would YOU build your next factory???

Would it be in the good ole' union proud USA where the EPA, OSHA, Powerful Unions, $20-$30/hr wages, and most of all silly LAWSUITS are as common as sunburn in July?

HELL NO!!!!

Especially now that they have NAFTA... You know, the North American Free Trade Agreement. You can build a factory right across the border where they have none of the above restrictions and CHEAP labor, and ship the goods right back over here with no extra tariffs! It's a no-brainer!

Companies have to be competitive these days. If a union forces super high wages, they just price the company out of business. If the company wants to survive, they are forced to re-locate their factories.

Why do you think company profits (and their stock prices) went through the roof after NAFTA passed? Their profits went through the roof after moving across the border... Luckily we were undergoing a computer revolution that kept most of the country busy. Now that all the businesses have gotten computerized and networked, the boom is over... and so is the economy.

We can't compete with other countries that play by different rules than we do, but big business got into politics and opened up the borders, and opened up their profits. It probably would have never happened if Unions hadn't pushed the wages as high as they did and supported all the frivilous lawsuits. It just became too expensive to conduct business here.

If you have a $30/hr union job, enjoy it while it lasts. Chances are, it won't be there forever.

Good Luck!


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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3



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n2omike - 6:19 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

Oh yea, around here there are several large (once MUCH larger) chemical companies. These companies used to do all their own maintenance and on-site construction with their own union workers.

I worked for one of their R&D facilities one summer. While I was there, they were building new labs on the 5th floor of my building (with their own union labor). Those guys would always show up late and leave early. If you did catch them there, chances were they'd be sitting down and talking. Those labe had been under construction for months, if not years, and still weren't completed.

This was at Union Carbide (which has since been taken over by Dow, who did some MAJOR house cleaning and laying off). Their production in the area had shrunk down do a fraction of what it once was, and they had layed off almost all their union construction people and replaced them with a large non-union construction company. (Brown and Root). It was really bad at that facility for a long time. The union was really out of control, and the jobs disappeared.

Better luck to ya'

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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3



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MonsterMach - 9:11 pm on Dec. 21, 2001

As a retail Manager (in a prior life) in an area of the country where there were both "union" and "non union" stores within the same company I can tell you there was zero benefit to being in a union store. The non union stores always paid more than whatever the union contract called for ... the company benefits were always kept better than the union offered.

The terms of employment were always exactly the same ... Infact Management is required to document what is going on in a case of discipline (or termination for cause) to the point that any union employee coming in for "termination" usually had the union representative just sitting there looking at the employee asking them why they were such a "dumb ****."

I can also assure you that were it not for the 100% vote needed to remove "union representation" and the fact that the union stores all had atleast a couple of "old timers" who's entire retirement was wrapped up in the union ... Unions could have been voted out of each and every store in the chain in very short order.

I don't know that the time for Unions is past but I can tell you in that environment they were worth nothing more than possibly setting the "pace" for the company to exceed in order to make them (the union) look silly.

Hmmm ... and employees in the union stores paid money to the union for that.

Go figure????

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Larry Madsen
Las Vegas Nevada

Edited by: MonsterMach

Edited by: MonsterMach



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qtrhors - 2:27 am on Dec. 22, 2001

Of course US co's are going go outa the country. When you can pollute the air and water freely because there is no envirmental protection laws....you might as well trash the place for big savings(read more profit for the upper management). When you can pay the labor force slave wages...like 1.50 hr(guy thinks he's doing good now because his last job was .50 and hr). Its ok to keep people in other countries at a standard of living far below what we have? Unions are the reason for the standard of living we have. But you right once all the Co's leave because they no longer have to pay fair wages and provide decent work hours or provide health care benefits the middle class will be gone. But you can be assured rich American co's will still be here. Go figure.

"and thats all I have to say about that"


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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly



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Bossman - 8:28 am on Dec. 22, 2001

I personally see no benefit to it if you are well taken care of by your company.I am a Non-Union Aircraft mechanic for Delta Air Lines.During the recent events which forced the airlines into a financial nose dive,many fellow mechanics at other airlines were shown the door immediately,all union workers.Delta however,grateful for the hard work that made the company what it is, made available voluntary leaves while still retaining benefits and flying priveleges,sweet early retirement packages and had to lay off maybe 300 non union employees,compared to 13,000 union workers at other airlines.At the same time though the Delta pilots,all members of the Air Line Pilots Association who pretty much bullied their way into raping the company of millions with a recent contract,were held TO that contract and 1700 pilots were laid off.You tell ME...how should I feel about joining a union?BTW...Delta aircraft mechanics have been and will be the highest paid mechanics in the industry for years.

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Run what ya brung..and hope ya brought enough.
1964 Fairlane 2 door hardtop

Edited by: Bossman



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Paxtonman - 9:59 am on Dec. 22, 2001

qtrhors, my father in law was in your union, he was a railroad worker for 39 years. He was also a drunk who should have been fired on several occasions, I read through some of his papers after he died. One night he was so popped they couldn't understand his speech, but he still had his job. One more thing, you obviously work for the railroad, when was the last time they made a PROFIT? We used to ship by rail, but the train people never knew where the product was or when it would arrive. Train loads of product were getting lost for WEEKS!!! After getting burnt too many times we decided trucks were the way to go. You see those of us in the private sector have to do that, make a profit, or we are out of business. They don't raise taxes if I f**k up, I'm just out. As far as the train system in the US, it's about time they showed a profit we have been propping the industry up for years.



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Paxtonman - 10:15 am on Dec. 22, 2001

qtrhors, one more thing, in my town, my people are paid $5 an hour more then the biggest emplorer in town and yes they are union. My brother is a Supervisor at that plant and we discuss the differences all the time. Bottem line is whether you are in a Union or not, you can be fired. Like my boss has told me, if we lose it's $25000, if we win it's nothing. If they are a problem get rid of them, period. Either way the employee isn't coming back. And in case you are wondering what our employees think, my boss walked the plant yesterday and left me a message that he felt morale had never been higher. As for your 6 days comment, I work 6 days, this week will be 7, my people work 4 or 5. My pay is tied to the success of the company, if profit is down I make less, not the employee. I can tell you last year I received less then the year before, not much, $150. It is not us against them it is simply us, together. My people stop at my home, I play golf with several employees, and yes they ask me I don't force them. The last person to talk about unions at our plant was ran out of town by the employees.



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qtrhors - 4:09 pm on Dec. 22, 2001

Burlington Northern Santa Fe RR and prior to the merger the former Burlington Northern RR(where I hired out 22 yrs ago and at one time was the biggest and most profitable....still the most profitable...2nd biggest RR now to the UPSP....Union Pacific/Southern Pacific)
These huge RR co's make money(just ask the CEO and guys just under him who take 6 digit salaries and huge stock option bonuses for 7 digit incomes...it comes off the backs of people who do the actual work) and lots of it.
As far as those probs you mentioned. Those are company managment probs(non union people). And the union employees have nothing to do with the design and decision making as far as tracking the customers commodities they just work within the sys. Im a locomotive engineer and damn good at what I do. We are randomly tested for drugs and alcohol by the FRA(day or night) and The BLE does not protect drunks and drug addicts. Most people who are not union do understand places that unions are still used and needed in some work places. Believe me if you did what I do...you would understand. Try a 24/7 on call work schedule sometime...with no weekends or holidays off or any extra pay for working same. I spend 70-90 hrs a week in company service. Im in charge of millions of dollars worth of equipment and customers commodities and make life and death decisions everytime I go to work. A mistake on my part can kill someone and even put me in prison if proven negligent.


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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly



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djhoghead - 8:38 pm on Dec. 23, 2001

I also work at a place where the Union is very, very important. The company I work for make millions of dollars a week. The CEO of my company, if he worked a 40 hours work week makes an average of $126.00 a minute with his salary and stock options (that comes to 302,400 a week). I work 7 days a week and get paid no overtime for the sixth and seventh day I work. When I work Christmas Day of any holiday I DO NOT get time and a half. With my job there are many safety issues and without the Union the company would not improve as fast as they do now. Many of my coworkers are very safe and comply 100% with the rules and that slows down the trains, so the bosses are pissed and without the Union these consciences workers would be on the street.

Dave
Brotherhood of Lomotive Engineers Division 404



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Bossman - 6:41 am on Dec. 24, 2001

7 days a week with no overtime pay and you dont get paid on holidays?Sounds like that union of yours is reeeeeeally workin out for ya.I think I'll stay non union and get paid double and a half on Christmas..Thanks.

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Run what ya brung..and hope ya brought enough.
1964 Fairlane 2 door hardtop



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djhoghead - 12:34 am on Dec. 25, 2001

Hey Bossman, My Union lost a lot of power because we lost the right to strike. Everytime we go on strike the President puts us back to work in a few hours, then sends us to binding arbitration.



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qtrhors - 2:05 am on Dec. 26, 2001

right djhoghead

just got your nick haha

what most of these guys dont understand is almost all the great things they have at these non union work places came from work agreements bargained for by unions elsewhere. Do you think that these companies would give things to the employees like their union counterparts have or once had if they did not have to compete for workers who won theses things at the bargianning table at one time? No Way! Rich corprate America throws out a few extra crumbs once and awhile and keeps the "drones" happy while they become even richer.


Tim
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers Div 180


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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly



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Bossman - 9:14 am on Dec. 26, 2001

So what you're saying is..even though my company treats me very well and I enjoy my job..I should join a union and instantaneously transform the relationship between management and myself into an"Us versus Them" kinda thing.Why would I do that?I get so tired of hearing"Im such a victim...management is abusing me and the owner of the company is sooo rich and Im not"....HELLO ...HE OWNS THE COMPANY!Ya want some bum that lives under an overpass running the place?Would that make you feel better?

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Run what ya brung..and hope ya brought enough.
1964 Fairlane 2 door hardtop



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n2omike - 10:13 am on Dec. 26, 2001

The ONLY reason an employer hires an employee is to make himself money. They aren't in the welfare game.

If he's going to pay someone $30k or more a year, he's going to expect the employee to make him quite a bit more.

Unions DEFINITELY came about for a reason, but some have pushed things too far. As in "OUT OF THE COUNTRY". They've pushed things further and further, and business's have been forced to find ways to make themselves more competitive. In our world economy, profit margins can make or break a company in no time. When the stock price falls, bad things happen.

For profitability, big business influenced the government to open the borders to free trade (NAFTA). Now, the big corporations can play by a new set of rules and increase their profit margins. Initially, the country seemed all for it, stock prices (and the baby boomers retirements) shot through the roof!

The computer revolution masked all the manufacturing job losses, so everyone thought all was well. Guess what, now that we are all computerized and networked, the boom has pretty much leveled out, and we are starting to see where the real economy is going to be for a while.

Unions pushed companies to look elsewhere, and the government opened up the borders. Now we are all going to suffer.

I have zero respect for the UAW. $30/hr to any idiot who cares to stand in one spot doing a no-brainer task... and with KILLER benifits and profit sharing to boot. People go to school for years and work extremely stressful jobs MANY hours a week for way less than they are making. THIS is just a line job!

I don't blame the employee... I'd be all over it as well, but the union that pushed things to this level will eventually push ALL the jobs into other countries.

Rant off...




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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3



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qtrhors - 10:55 am on Dec. 26, 2001

It doesn't matter what poor examples of union labor probs you bring out. Unions are needed in many places still. Safety and fatigue issues a very real and jobs where life and limb are at risk it can be a benefit for workers to organize and have major input on these issues. Like I said I work in one of these places. Those who sit behind a keyboard all day in perfectly controlled indoor climates...sleep at night...with days off(alot with weekends off) and holidays off have no clue what it is like. Just this month and engineer was killed and a conductor injured and it was not their fault. As far as NAFTA is concerned. Well if you think ANY jobs...union or non will benefit from that your dreaming. Like I said before when American companies can go to say Mexico and pay people slave wages and not have to pay any attention to safety and enivermental concerns it's pretty obvious what they would do. Is it right for American companies in the name of the almighty dollar to pollute other countries air and water and pay those slave wages? I think not. Like I said also watch and see who comes out the winners....American companies will make their profits. While American workers go backwards in cash flow. One day the American consumer will be broke and in debt(already happening before Sept 11) these companies will sell nothing because people have no money. The tax base will go down and the US gov will have even bigger debt. This consumer driven economy will go right down the drain. Your right the dot com boom is over and now the real numbers will begin to come in...the ones that reflect the true economy.

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351W/AOD 81 Stang Coupe 12.23 111.7
pump gas....street and highway driven regularly



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n2omike - 11:21 am on Dec. 26, 2001

I'm not arguing that ALL unions are evil... Just that many of them became too powerful and forced jobs out of the country.

The UAW is a prime example.

However, there is an even LARGER factor in jobs walking across the border. That factor is LAWSUITS. A buddy of mine is the General Foreman at a large chemical plant construction facility. Everything they do is done with the fear of an impending lawsuit. You wouldn't believe some of the safety rules they must follow. Some are downright silly. BUT, people still manage to hurt themselves out of their own stupidity... By no fault of the company at all, and end up calling their lawyer and end up winning HUGE lawsuits. If it was the case of the company directly telling them to do something that got them hurt, I could see it... but 99% of the time, that's NOT the case. These types of occurances are what force the companies to adopt all the silly regulations to protect themselves from the stupid.

Lawyers have too much of a stranglehold on big business. Combine this with UAW type unions, and you get to hear that "giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the country that Ross Perot used to talk about.

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Mike Burch, 66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads, 10.63 @ 129.3



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qtrhors - 11:53 am on Dec. 26, 2001

No question that the liability laws in this country need some work. They do force companies to come in with some silly operating procedures. I have seen this happening where I work too. But this would happen regardless of organized workers. I'm not saying unions are an end all. If you have a good work situation no reason to fix what isn't broke. Actually there isn't that many union workers in America anymore. The truth is ultimately we shouldn't have to have unions(in a perfect world). Unions are not needed everywhere they never were. But think about the past when "sweatshops" and child slave labor were common(still is outside the US). Do you think that a worker getting say 30.00/hr would concede to 20.00/hr or 10.00/hr is going to stop companies from taken advantage of overseas workers who will work for 2.00/hr. No way. Until we establish laws that prevent companies from doing out this country what is illegal inside this country you can kiss all the jobs goodbye regardless of unions.
I say agian if you have a good non union job no need to fix what isn't broke
 

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Wow! Lots of good input on this topic!:D

I guess for me it comes to working for a good company,and not so much the union at the company?

I have had some pretty raw deals at some of the companies I have worked for around here.

I had one company who didnt even pay for a $500 hospital bill when I was hurt on the job!

It was filed under workmans comp,but I found out later the company had not payed in the payments to have coverage for their employees!

But of course the money was coming out of our checks every week for it.

Lots of "shady" deals going on there I think?

Now,would this have happened at the company I work for now?

NO WAY IN HELL!

I guess you guys are right for the most part,if you work for a good company that treats you good it doesnt really matter if its union or not.
 

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Well I dont want to get into this too deep because most people are going to belive what they want to and thats there right.
Just let me say that the people who belive that the unions are not responseble for the good non union jobs out there are dead wrong.
I would venture to guess that most people who would make that comment are fairly young and just dont understand the way things used to be. The unions same as invented the 40 hr work week and we are all loosing that because of declining union membership.

You have to remember that there are two classes of unions, the industrial unions and trade unions. The United steel workers,and the United Auto Workers are examples of industrial unions. Operating Engineers, Carpenters, Iron Workers and Laborers are examples of Trade Unions. The Teamsters are a example of a union that have divisions in both. I myself am a member of Teamsters local 142 in Gary In working as a construction truck driver.

I see that $30 dollars an hour thrown around and let me say that that is quite an exception to the rule. Very few industrial union members make anywhere that amount. There are some trade union members that do make that but most do not. The ones that do are very highly trained and experienced at there specialized jobs. You have to remember that most trade union jobs are not full time, work for the same company jobs. They have to make there years pay in 7-9 months, thats why the pay is higher. Most make no more in a year than the lower paid industrial union jobs do.

I guess my point here is you cannot make broad assumptions based on one persons experiance with say the UAW.

I also have worked both non union and union and belive me I will try to stay working union because my standard of living better that way. Also alot of people forget about planning for the future and most union jobs help provide for a good pension for later on in life and also good health benefits for is members and there familys now.

If you have a good non union job now for a company that pays you well and provides benefits and your happy, then god bless you, your one of the lucky ones that do not have the need for a union. But there are more non union jobs out there that need a union then dont.

As far a unions running good jobs out of our country, thats right they have. But no more than the number of marginal or even bad non union jobs that have fled the country because of corprate greed. Hell my 61 year old mom just lost her $6 dollar an hour job to Mexico. You tell me how you can pick your business up and move it to Mexico and turn a profit shipping every product back to the states when you already have a $6 dollar an hour work force here? I bet the Mexicans are sure going to make a good living off what they will get paid in comparison. Just rembember this company the next time you buy a welder or battery charger. There name is Schumacher Electric. The same millionaires that run Formula 1 race cars.

Belive me I can see the point of some who despize unions. Being a union member myself I see some things in the industrial unions that make me sick also. I see a company like LTV steel closing its doors because of mostly mismangement and I get distressed about it. I also see the same company pay the CEO who helped run it into the ground over a million dollars to him to have him resign. That makes me want to puke. The company then tried to blame there labor agreements for there problems. The United Steelworkers gave drastic consessions and they are trying to close it anyway.
I guess I should get off my soap box now. I guess everyone should remember there are 2 sides to everything and some are not always easy to see.
 

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I belonged to UFCW 555, it is a union for grocery clerks, I worked for a Safeway grocery store. I was a cortesy clerk, I helped people and carried groceries and etc. I was in school at the time. I was working 16 hours a week. I was being paid a whole $6.70 an hour, twenty cents above minuium wage. I got my job in July, I refused to join the union. I got a notice in the mail if I did not join the union I would be fired. They wanted $253. They wanted a $100 for a iniation, then various fees and $53 for every three months. I paid it to keep a job and I was too lazy to look for an another one.

I did a better job than most of the other people there. I busted my ass and all that I got was to be called on more often because they knew that I would get the job done. Pay was all based on senority and not how well of a job that you did. What a croc. I tried talking to the union about not being a part of it and they said I had to be. I tried to reduce my fees because I did not work full time, the minumin amount to pay per month was a savings of 75 cents from what I was paying. I switched over to the deli and got a manager that appricated me, but could not afford to give me a raise because the previous manager ran the deli into deep debt. It was a quite interesting experiance.

Then the union had the members pay manatory politic contribitions. It was an extra $3.25 a month. Under the 1988 US Supreme Court Decision of Beck vs. Communication Workers, union may have the workers pay for political contribitions, but the union workers can have all of their money refunded that is used to for political contribitions. I called my union rep and all I can was an answering machine and I drove there he was out. I tried multiple times, but no luck. I have had nothing but trouble and all I got was screwed, screwed and screwed some more. UNIONS SUCK

If you are in a union and like it good for you. But if you are forced it into it and forced to pay dues and stupid people work along you and you do literally twice the work as them and get paid the same, there is nothing that you can do. There is something wrong.
 

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68 stang, you kind of counterdicted yourself. First you said you were too lazy to look for another job so you stayed and joind the union. $6.70 jobs shouldnt be that hard to come by. Nobody forced you into anything. Also unions try to insist on full membership in the work place for a reason, mangement will try to favor the non union employee to undermine the union. Thats no fair to a good hard working union member either to have someone else favored even if he is a lazy ass just because he didnt join the union.

Also I can relate to you working in the grocery business as I used to work delivering grocerys to the stores. It is a very competitive cutthroat business and I never met as many assholes in my life as I did interacting with grocery store managers. No wonder the safeway stores are unionized.

Also your statement about being forced to contribute to political campaigns is something I have a hard time swallowing. I have never run across that one and I wont say your wrong but I am going to check into that myself.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Modified Mark on 12/28/01 1:39pm ]</font>
 

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Modified Mark
Yes I did counterdict myself, but my point is if I bust my ass, I will get paid the same as someone else who does half the work. I went and joined the company and I work for the company and not the union. When the contract came up for the store again, what did everyone get a whole extra 15 cents an hours. That is a lot of money.

I estimated that the union is pulling in 8 million dollars every three months, where does all of that money go? Do the people that run the union have to join a union? I have written the union also and have not recieved a response back to them. If I treated my customers the way I am being treated I would defintaly be fired. But, the problem is that I cannot fire them, I cannot take my business some where else.

I can see the advatage of joining a union if you are going to spend your career there, but if you are just a part timer like a high school or college student then it is defintaly not.
 

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68 stang, I understood your point from the beginning and you have some legitimate gripes. But you say you have no way out? Thats not correct, its called decertifcation. If the employees feel the union representing them is not doing what there suppose to do they CAN get rid of them. All they have to to is petition the NLRB for a decertification vote. This is federal law.

I am not really familiar with the union you are talking about so I cannot directly say much about them. I notice the state your from and I will say that its not the union hotbed of the US and sometimes with out enough support from its own members, other unions and the local communitys that there are only so much any union can do for you.

As for you not getting any response from your union I will say that there is no excuse for that and most unions do not operate in that manner. Maybe they knew you were going to be a short timer and didnt figure it was worth the bother. I'm not saying that it was right, just maybe an explanation. Alot of unions love short timers though as they help keep the pension funds up. The people who stay and contribute just a few years will never draw on any of the funds they will contribute to it to the advantage of all the members who stay into it till retirement.

The labors local in our area is a good example of it. They have a 25 years service and out at full rate pension at any age. At age 45 if you started at 20, you could be drawing a full pension. How can you beat that?
As for 8 million a quarter that sounds like alot but I dont really know how big the ufcw is. But you ask where it goes? Good penisions and health benifts cost big money.
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:eek:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Modified Mark on 12/30/01 2:16am ]</font>
 

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I worked in a steel galvanizing plant for 2 years. The union kept a bunch of low-life, immature assholes in jobs even tho they did drugs on the job and would get caught. About 1/2 of the crew did all the work. The other 1/2 was very creative in their efforts to avoid work. I learned such interesting sayings as "Never kill the job" and "It's easier F'ing the dog!" and "Slow down! You'll make the senior guys look bad." They picked fights about once a month, thought it was funny to spit on you from the uppper levels, and lied incessently about why the job wasn't finished by shift end. After almost being decapitated by a large flame thrower I had enough. The job was dirty, loud, and dangerous even if no one was clowning around. The molten zinc pot was just an open hole in the floor- no barrier what so ever. The raced the electric forklifts (giant things- picked up 20 ton steel rolls) and many a line worker had to run or jump out of the way. None of this is exaggeration. Simply the sights I saw or experienced on a daily basis.

Why did I take that job? In '89 I went from $11 hour working for Fluke in their repair facility repairing and calibrating electronic test equipment (lots-o-Fluke 77 meters!) to $16.35 hour working at the steel plant. It sure looked good on paper. It was an educational experience- that's for sure. I don't know about any other Unions- bu the one I was in made sure that losers could keep a high paying job and not have to work very hard to keep it. The front page of the monthly union paper always had a picure of someone holding a big check for a years wages (or more) shaking an arbitrators hand after it was found that the co. that fired him did so wrongly after things like fights, drug use, or chronic absenteeism. Never again.

JL
 

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I've been in two unions and I really didn't care for either of them. Here's a simple list of reasons:

1. The person who's been there one year makes the same as the person who's been there 20 years.

2. The person that works his ass off gets paid the same as the person who tries to do as little as possible.

3. When the union and the company get in a tiff during negotiations, it's the worker that gets screwed.

4. Your raises are negotiated by someone you don't know instead of being based on your performance.

5. Worthless workers are impossible to get rid of.

6. Good workers leave because they're tired of dealing with the worthless workers.

I could go on but that's enough. The company I work for has union and non-union jobs. When a non-union job opens up we have a long list of union workers just begging for the job.

The end.
 

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Greg, I will say I respect your right to your opinions, but let me give another look at them.

Item 1. First off where I the good book dose it say seniority is suppose to pay more? I know it is a custom in some places but lets look to see how much sense it really makes. Why should a 20 year employee make more than a 1 year employee if they do the same job? You moan about a lazy employee getting the same pay as a hard worker, why if the jobs are the same should the pay be differnt? Even moreso by your logic, if its a physically demanding job a young worker in general will produce more than a older worker.

If you want to reward seniority, you give it by shift assinments, longer vacations, etc, but not by pay.

Also when things get slow and there is a reduction in the work force, who is the company going to let go first, the 20 year man who makes top pay or the jr man who makes 25-50% less and maybe a more productive worker. Without a union to back you up your seniority pay scale just might put you out the door first if your the senior employee.
Item 2 Non union places have the same problems. Always have always will.

Item 3. Ass far as the union getting into a tiff in negotiations thats maybe a good thing as I wouldnt want the people who are doing it for me to go in kissing ass. The company and union are there for business not to make friends. The company dosent want to give you anything you want, and its the negotiators job to get the things you want for you. How do you figure its the worker that gets screwed? Don't they get to vote on the contract thats been negotiated? If you like it and you think its the best you can do ratify it. If not vote it down. Just remember if you end up outside on a picket line that the majority vote of the workers put you there not nessarily the union.

I realize that there maybe a few cases where the workers contracts are decided by the union for them, but they are not near a common as they used to be and are getting smaller all the time.

Item 4. You conterdicted yourself. Do you want wage increases by performance or by seniority? The only way to pay for performance fairly is by incentives or piece work. Very hard to get members to agree to, and then you alwys have trouble about who sets the rates for incentives and piece work.

Item 5. Worthless workers are harder to get rid of when there uion represented, but not impossiable. If your company can't get rid of the slugs its because there not very smart. If the company has documented for a reasonable amount of time the workers problems and given the slug enough rope to hang himself with, they can get him gone. Union or no union.

Item 6. Good workers usally leave for more money. I doubt if many actually leave because of there coworkers and not take a better paying job.

You didnt explain the nature of the non union jobs, there probably easier (supervisor,management) jobs that also pay more.

I wish you would have given the names of the unions you mentioned.
 

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Greg, I will say I respect your right to your opinions, but let me give another look at them.

Item 1. First off where I the good book dose it say seniority is suppose to pay more? I know it is a custom in some places but lets look to see how much sense it really makes. Why should a 20 year employee make more than a 1 year employee if they do the same job? You moan about a lazy employee getting the same pay as a hard worker, why if the jobs are the same should the pay be differnt? Even moreso by your logic, if its a physically demanding job a young worker in general will produce more than a older worker.

If you want to reward seniority, you give it by shift assinments, longer vacations, etc, but not by pay.

Also when things get slow and there is a reduction in the work force, who is the company going to let go first, the 20 year man who makes top pay or the jr man who makes 25-50% less and maybe a more productive worker. Without a union to back you up your seniority pay scale just might put you out the door first if your the senior employee.
Item 2 Non union places have the same problems. Always have always will.

Item 3. Ass far as the union getting into a tiff in negotiations thats maybe a good thing as I wouldnt want the people who are doing it for me to go in kissing ass. The company and union are there for business not to make friends. The company dosent want to give you anything you want, and its the negotiators job to get the things you want for you. How do you figure its the worker that gets screwed? Don't they get to vote on the contract thats been negotiated? If you like it and you think its the best you can do ratify it. If not vote it down. Just remember if you end up outside on a picket line that the majority vote of the workers put you there not nessarily the union.

I realize that there maybe a few cases where the workers contracts are decided by the union for them, but they are not near a common as they used to be and are getting smaller all the time.

Item 4. You conterdicted yourself. Do you want wage increases by performance or by seniority? The only way to pay for performance fairly is by incentives or piece work. Very hard to get members to agree to, and then you alwys have trouble about who sets the rates for incentives and piece work.

Item 5. Worthless workers are harder to get rid of when there uion represented, but not impossiable. If your company can't get rid of the slugs its because there not very smart. If the company has documented for a reasonable amount of time the workers problems and given the slug enough rope to hang himself with, they can get him gone. Union or no union.

Item 6. Good workers usally leave for more money. I doubt if many actually leave because of there coworkers and not take a better paying job.

You didnt explain the nature of the non union jobs, there probably easier (supervisor,management) jobs that also pay more.

I wish you would have given the names of the unions you mentioned.
 

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I'm not much on unions. Then again, my uncle who is a retired UAW rep always called me the 'union buster' (other then that, we get along fine, he's just a Democrat is all...).

I've been in one union, United Steel Workers (and have NO clue what they did for me, even today) while working for Vinell, a big govronment contracter.

Anyway, I don't see much use for them anymore, and I'll not be joining another one. If you're in a good union, good for you, I don't need one. Granted I won't be having a 20+ hour job like the rest of my family that works or retired from Chrysler had, but I don't want it. The way I figure it is if I can support my family on 10 bucks an hour or whatever, thats all I really need.
I've never had a lot of money, but I've never been hurting for money either. All my needs are always provided for. Needs, not wants. Where was I?

I do think the unions are pricing the working force right out of the country. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my take on things.
 

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Cobrajack sent this and wantedme to post it. Gotta love UNIONS.

A dedicated Teamsters Union worker was
> attending a convention in Las Vegas
> and, as you would expect, decided
> to check out the brothels nearby.
> When he got to the first one, he asked
> the Madam, "Is this a union house?"
> "No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."
> "Well, if I pay you $100.00,
> what cut do the girls get?"
> "The house gets $80.00
> and the girls get $20.00."
>
> Mightily offended at such unfair dealings,
> the man stomped off down the
> street in search of a more equitable,
> hopefully unionized shop. His
> search continued until finally he reached a
> brothel where the Madam responded,
> "Why, yes sir, this IS a Union House.
> " The man asked, "And if I pay you $100.00,
> what cut do the girls get?"
> "The girls get $80.00 and the house gets $20.00"
> "That's more like it!" the union man said.
> He handed the Madam $100.00,
> looked around the room and pointed to
> a stunningly attractive blonde.
> "I'd like her for the night."
>
> "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam,
> then gesturing to an 85-year
> old woman in the corner, "but according to
> the Union rules, Ethel here has Seniority."
 

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On 2002-01-03 18:12, dark7068 wrote:
Cobrajack sent this and wantedme to post it. Gotta love UNIONS.

A dedicated Teamsters Union worker was
> attending a convention in Las Vegas
> and, as you would expect, decided
> to check out the brothels nearby.
> When he got to the first one, he asked
> the Madam, "Is this a union house?"
> "No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."
> "Well, if I pay you $100.00,
> what cut do the girls get?"
> "The house gets $80.00
> and the girls get $20.00."
>
> Mightily offended at such unfair dealings,
> the man stomped off down the
> street in search of a more equitable,
> hopefully unionized shop. His
> search continued until finally he reached a
> brothel where the Madam responded,
> "Why, yes sir, this IS a Union House.
> " The man asked, "And if I pay you $100.00,
> what cut do the girls get?"
> "The girls get $80.00 and the house gets $20.00"
> "That's more like it!" the union man said.
> He handed the Madam $100.00,
> looked around the room and pointed to
> a stunningly attractive blonde.
> "I'd like her for the night."
>
> "I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam,
> then gesturing to an 85-year
> old woman in the corner, "but according to
> the Union rules, Ethel here has Seniority."
Hahaha!

That's great!


Our contract with Cat has been extended until Sun to see of our Local 974 is going to ratify it.

Many old-timers I am sure are worried about health and deductibles on life insurance issues right now.

 
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