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bASED ON ALL THE HEADS AND INTAKES i have flowed and ported guessing a fully ported VrJr one might get 230 give or take out of one bolted to well ported head would be around 360 or so free flow possibly.
Think porting a bogus boss intake only did about 260 or 270 fuzzy on that one was about 6 or 7 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Yes I am running a toploader. Rear end is a 9 inch with a 4:11 detroit locker. The front suspension consists of roller upper arms and spring perches with six cylinder springs. CE 3 way adjustable shocks that will be replaced soon with the Calvert 90/10s.
My rear suspension has caltracs and the calvert 9 way adjustable shocks. I am still running what I believe is the original 1968 rear leaf springs and I need to change them out. I will probably get the calvert split monos to match the rest of the parts.
So far I have a best 60ft of 1.68 that I have only achieved once. I am running a set of smallish ET street tires and have had a hard time hooking. Typical 60 fts are in the 1.80ish range and I am trying to get that down to at least low 1.60s. The caltracs and rear shocks are new to me so I have some experimenting to do to try and improve my 60s. I am also hoping to try some full on slicks this summer.
That's a pretty good setup and it seems like you know the adjustments needed to run quicker times. I'm running mickey Thompson ET streets 275 50 15's and I let pressure down to 17 psi on my last and fastest run to date: 11.912 @ 118.56 with a 1.869 60'. I've only made about 12 passes on the entire car/setup so I'm hoping to get down to where you are or even hopefully bottom 11's. Not sure if 3.70 final drive ratio is hurting me. I have a Detroit true-trac as opposed to Detroit locker. I mad 472 RWHP and 527 RWTQ through TKO 600 and 9". What's your setup motor wise? Have you dynod it? Not that it matters, but just curious. Thanks>
 

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I'm running mickey Thompson ET streets 275 50 15's and I let pressure down to 17 psi on my last and fastest run to date: 11.912 @ 118.56 with a 1.869 60'. Not sure if 3.70 final drive ratio is hurting me. I have a Detroit true-trac as opposed to Detroit locker.
A few things stand out here. First a radial slick is not ideal for a stick car which needs a stiffer side wall. The radial is not a forgiving when hit hard at launch and once it starts spinning you will be done. A bias type slick can recover. Tubes and a stiff wall slick could do wonders in your 60'er. I once had small Hoosier bias QTF's on rims just for the track and they stuck quite well. Determined people can make the radial work with a stick, but it generally takes a racing clutch that slips, ideal suspension, good track conditions, and lots of runs to get it to work most of the time. Even then, once it spins its done. Some stick racers have done well with the bias ET streets, which have the same traction compound as the stiff wall slicks.

I don't think that the 3.70 is hurting you yet, at least at launch. It actually might be helping the ET streets to maintain traction. The higher numerical ratio you go, the less traction you will have at launch. I did the 3.70 for a couple of years and then traded up to a 4.11 and saw virtually no change in how the car ran at the time. Eventually I decided to match my gear to the desired crossing RPM's and settled on a 4.33. Irregardless each change in gear required some changes in the suspension setup for it to hook the same as before.

I also once ran a True-trac because my car IS ALSO a street car and it sounded idea. As I got faster at the track (11.5's) I found that the rear end of the car would slide right most of the time, left some times, and go straight occasionally at launch. It couldn't be tuned out with the suspension. The kick wasn't bad but I had to be on my guard and it would steer out. Once the True Trac broke I switched to a spool and the kicking went away 100% and I experience nice straight launches almost continually. The car still sees street duty with the spool, but it took some getting used too.
 

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dEPENDING ON rpmS OF YOUR TORQ AND hp CURVES a 3.70 gear might be just right. Shift points and RPm THROUGH traps currently?

SOME slicks could help a lot
 

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That's a pretty good setup and it seems like you know the adjustments needed to run quicker times. I'm running mickey Thompson ET streets 275 50 15's and I let pressure down to 17 psi on my last and fastest run to date: 11.912 @ 118.56 with a 1.869 60'. I've only made about 12 passes on the entire car/setup so I'm hoping to get down to where you are or even hopefully bottom 11's. Not sure if 3.70 final drive ratio is hurting me. I have a Detroit true-trac as opposed to Detroit locker. I mad 472 RWHP and 527 RWTQ through TKO 600 and 9". What's your setup motor wise? Have you dynod it? Not that it matters, but just curious. Thanks>
No I haven't dyno'd it I just use the mph at the track as a gauge to the power I am making. Keep that in mind as you tune. The mph is how much power you are making and your ET is how efficiently you are using it. I have a basic tuneup on the engine but honestly I haven't tried any timing or jetting changes at the track because I can't get down the power that I have now.
My engine is a 408 with 10.7:1 compression. Out of the box vic jr heads and intake,holley 950HP (830cfm) from prosystems and a custom solid roller camshaft from Jay Allen. My headers are hooker 6208s but they do have a bit of a port mismatch with the vic jr heads which likely hurts power a bit.(too narrow).
I am running a centerforce dual friction clutch in the toploader.
As for gearing and tires I would listen to Dennis as he has spent lots of $ trying and breaking stuff at the strip. He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to running these old fords with manual trans.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
A few things stand out here. First a radial slick is not ideal for a stick car which needs a stiffer side wall. The radial is not a forgiving when hit hard at launch and once it starts spinning you will be done. A bias type slick can recover. Tubes and a stiff wall slick could do wonders in your 60'er. I once had small Hoosier bias QTF's on rims just for the track and they stuck quite well. Determined people can make the radial work with a stick, but it generally takes a racing clutch that slips, ideal suspension, good track conditions, and lots of runs to get it to work most of the time. Even then, once it spins its done. Some stick racers have done well with the bias ET streets, which have the same traction compound as the stiff wall slicks.

I don't think that the 3.70 is hurting you yet, at least at launch. It actually might be helping the ET streets to maintain traction. The higher numerical ratio you go, the less traction you will have at launch. I did the 3.70 for a couple of years and then traded up to a 4.11 and saw virtually no change in how the car ran at the time. Eventually I decided to match my gear to the desired crossing RPM's and settled on a 4.33. Irregardless each change in gear required some changes in the suspension setup for it to hook the same as before.

I also once ran a True-trac because my car IS ALSO a street car and it sounded idea. As I got faster at the track (11.5's) I found that the rear end of the car would slide right most of the time, left some times, and go straight occasionally at launch. It couldn't be tuned out with the suspension. The kick wasn't bad but I had to be on my guard and it would steer out. Once the True Trac broke I switched to a spool and the kicking went away 100% and I experience nice straight launches almost continually. The car still sees street duty with the spool, but it took some getting used too.
Yeah I too have had the car fishtail out of 1st and 2nd gear and find myself shifting into 3rd (before i want) to get the car heading straight down the track. As for the rear end, It is a street car with occasional strip duty. Don't have too many passes just yet, but I plan to run her more often at the track. As far as the true track goes, I'm guessing it goes true track, Detroit locker, then the spool in that order? I only launch the car @ about 1200-1500 RPM because it will blow the tires off. I was told that I should be launching @ around 3500-4000 and that the car should dead hook and run hard (when it's dialed in correctly). Anyways, what size and tire make/model are you running now? I'm running the Centerforce dual friction clutch by the way. Just want to say thanks again for your expertise.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
dEPENDING ON rpmS OF YOUR TORQ AND hp CURVES a 3.70 gear might be just right. Shift points and RPm THROUGH traps currently?

SOME slicks could help a lot
My shift point at the traps are around 4,200-4,500 in 4th gear through the traps. My shift points in 1st and 2nd are cut short because it gets squirley around 5,000 RPM, but i normally spin 3rd to about 6,200. It feels nicely spread out through the gears. I'm running comp cams hyd roller part # 35-601-8. Ported Vic Jrs. 308 CFM @ 600 lift and 224 CFM @ 600 through a port matched Vic Jr. intake. The builder told me the motor would spin to 7,000, but it will stop making power @ 6,500. 35-601-8 - Thumpr? Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshafts According to the cam card the power band is from 2200-5900 RPM.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
By the way guys; I kinda feel like my cam is a little small for my setup. I:frown2:
I want more power NA: like bumping up compression to 12:1 and running E85. And stepping up to a solid roller and going from the Holley HP 750 to the HP 950 carb. How much more power is on the table through let's say decking the heads to achieve 12:1 and running the fore mentioned components?
 

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As far as the true track goes, I'm guessing it goes true track, Detroit locker, then the spool in that order?
Yes, that is the way I would interpret them. A "soft" Detroit locker would be great for street/strip car.

I only launch the car @ about 1200-1500 RPM because it will blow the tires off. I was told that I should be launching @ around 3500-4000 and that the car should dead hook and run hard (when it's dialed in correctly). Anyways, what size and tire make/model are you running now? I'm running the Centerforce dual friction clutch by the way.
A little background about my car first. The first year we went to the dragstrip it had a 393w, Procomp 210 heads, custom SFT cam, Vic Jr intake, 750HP carb, 1 3/4" headers, Centerforce DF clutch, 2.78 first gear top loader, True Track with 3.70 gears, QTF 8" wide Bias streets, and Caltracs. I let the clutch fly between 3500-4000 rpm's and surprisingly the car hooked. I was able to run high 1.58 60'ers. Ran pretty consistent 12.0x until the fall and then it pulled out an [email protected] on 26x8" slicks the last night of the year. Motor made about 360hp. That combo sounds very similar to what you currently have. The following year with some tuning and a 950HP carb I was hitting 117mph in the high 11's.

Next I swapped out the Procomp 210's for a used pair of AFR 205's. With everything else being basically the same, the 393w became an entirely different animal. On the same 8" wide stiff wall drag slick I was hitting [email protected] Broke the True Trac and went with a spool. With a swap to a roller cam and a slipper racing clutch it ran 11.20's before loosing a lifter killed the block.

After that it got crazy as I mini-tubbed so that I could use the 28x10.5 stiff wall slicks (which is what I run now.) The 427w was built, the Jerico was added. 4.33 gears. Pump gas 93octane has always been a requirement. The car had 213 track runs this year and a little over 1000 miles of street driving. Believe it or not, its actually quite docile on the street.

Sorry for the long story but hopefully you will see that I started out very similar to you and was never satisfied and I am always yearning for more.
 

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By the way guys; I kinda feel like my cam is a little small for my setup. I:frown2:
I want more power NA: like bumping up compression to 12:1 and running E85. And stepping up to a solid roller and going from the Holley HP 750 to the HP 950 carb. How much more power is on the table through let's say decking the heads to achieve 12:1 and running the fore mentioned components?
Compression would make the car rev faster, but its only good by itself for about 3% more HP. Not sure that you can deck the heads enough to get 12:1 without hitting the valve seats or crashing the valves into the pistons.

IMHO, you really don't need to run that much compression in a street car. We don't have ready access to E85 locally so I keep my car spec'ed to run 93 octane-including at the track. Shoot for 11:1 max and have your choice of cam core custom ground to run pump gas. The 950HP would be good for about 15-20hp at the upper rpm's over the 750HP.

Adding more HP is not going to make you any faster. All is for not until you get your traction problems resolved.
 

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sHOULD ADDRESS traction issue some slicks
And figure out why its getting squirrely
then see were your at.
pULLING SOME MORE RPM IN FIRST AND SECOND A BETTER HOLE SHOT AND POSSIBLY BE PULLING HIGHER TRAP rpm.
 

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My shift point at the traps are around 4,200-4,500 in 4th gear through the traps. My shift points in 1st and 2nd are cut short because it gets squirley around 5,000 RPM, but i normally spin 3rd to about 6,200. It feels nicely spread out through the gears. I'm running comp cams hyd roller part # 35-601-8. Ported Vic Jrs. 308 CFM @ 600 lift and 224 CFM @ 600 through a port matched Vic Jr. intake. The builder told me the motor would spin to 7,000, but it will stop making power @ 6,500. 35-601-8 - Thumpr? Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshafts According to the cam card the power band is from 2200-5900 RPM.
I don't think that cam is anywhere near optimum for your combo. The max lift is no where near your max flow on the heads. Duration is fairly short as well. Where did it stop making power when you dyno'd it?

Are you saying that even once you are underway down the strip the car breaks loose at the top of 1st and 2nd gear? My car has trouble hooking but once underway I don't have any more noticeable wheel spin.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I don't think that cam is anywhere near optimum for your combo. The max lift is no where near your max flow on the heads. Duration is fairly short as well. Where did it stop making power when you dyno'd it?

Are you saying that even once you are underway down the strip the car breaks loose at the top of 1st and 2nd gear? My car has trouble hooking but once underway I don't have any more noticeable wheel spin.
Here is the dyno sheet from when the builder finished the car and delivered it to me. Torque peaked at 4,329 RPM (527 RWTQ) and power peaked at 5,669 RPM (472 RWHP). I agree with you totally, I fell like there's room for a significantly larger cam. The builder says he installed 1.7 roller rockers to get more lift numbers, but not too much.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Yes, that is the way I would interpret them. A "soft" Detroit locker would be great for street/strip car.



A little background about my car first. The first year we went to the dragstrip it had a 393w, Procomp 210 heads, custom SFT cam, Vic Jr intake, 750HP carb, 1 3/4" headers, Centerforce DF clutch, 2.78 first gear top loader, True Track with 3.70 gears, QTF 8" wide Bias streets, and Caltracs. I let the clutch fly between 3500-4000 rpm's and surprisingly the car hooked. I was able to run high 1.58 60'ers. Ran pretty consistent 12.0x until the fall and then it pulled out an [email protected] on 26x8" slicks the last night of the year. Motor made about 360hp. That combo sounds very similar to what you currently have. The following year with some tuning and a 950HP carb I was hitting 117mph in the high 11's.

Next I swapped out the Procomp 210's for a used pair of AFR 205's. With everything else being basically the same, the 393w became an entirely different animal. On the same 8" wide stiff wall drag slick I was hitting [email protected] Broke the True Trac and went with a spool. With a swap to a roller cam and a slipper racing clutch it ran 11.20's before loosing a lifter killed the block.

After that it got crazy as I mini-tubbed so that I could use the 28x10.5 stiff wall slicks (which is what I run now.) The 427w was built, the Jerico was added. 4.33 gears. Pump gas 93octane has always been a requirement. The car had 213 track runs this year and a little over 1000 miles of street driving. Believe it or not, its actually quite docile on the street.

Sorry for the long story but hopefully you will see that I started out very similar to you and was never satisfied and I am always yearning for more.
That's totally fine, I like the discussion as long as everyone else here is okay with it. I'm here to learn and like hearing your first hand account based off your real world experience so I welcome all the knowledge you have.
 

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Here is the dyno sheet from when the builder finished the car and delivered it to me. Torque peaked at 4,329 RPM (527 RWTQ) and power peaked at 5,669 RPM (472 RWHP). I agree with you totally, I fell like there's room for a significantly larger cam. The builder says he installed 1.7 roller rockers to get more lift numbers, but not too much.
The dyno sheets look like it has a reasonably flat power curve where it counts. After looking at them, I'd say you should be shifting 6300-6400.

Gotta get it stable at the top of 1st and 2nd as there is a lot being left on the table. Put more air in the radials and see if the car is more stable at the top of the gears as an experiment. Also need to get it to hook at the line. The need of a good bias slick has already been mentioned and could be a game changer. For now, ignore the motor as it appears to be doing its job. I hope that you have a scattershield installed and a driveshaft loop as stuff can get real at any time . . . . .

Put your efforts into learning about the suspension. Tell us in detail about what your front and rear suspension consists of and how you have it adjusted--are they adjustable?

I can't stress the value of a good working suspension enough . . . . . A little tweaking could make a car a super star (or it can make it a dud.)
 

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wOULD LIKE TO SEE HEADS FLOW NUMBERS at each lift point .1 .2 .3 etc myself before selecting a cam. Things like flow only increasing say a few cfm between say .5 and .6 lift it might not make a big difference to increase lift possible to gain a bit of higher RPM power but loose a lot of low end. Dont know what valve springs your using but i run beehives 140 seat pressure and like 460 open on a hyd roller street with titianium retainers. Went from 6400 valve float dual springs to 7800 RPM with the beehive.
In my case first shift testing increasing rpm 200 RPM AT A TIME STARTLING AT 6400 got to 7200 RPM first to second with an AOD blew the 8.8 all over the road in front of the local ford dealer.

tOPPING OUT AT FIRST AND SECOND GETTING LOSE why things like front end still up real high causing the front to get loose
 

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Discussion Starter #38
The dyno sheets look like it has a reasonably flat power curve where it counts. After looking at them, I'd say you should be shifting 6300-6400.

Gotta get it stable at the top of 1st and 2nd as there is a lot being left on the table. Put more air in the radials and see if the car is more stable at the top of the gears as an experiment. Also need to get it to hook at the line. The need of a good bias slick has already been mentioned and could be a game changer. For now, ignore the motor as it appears to be doing its job. I hope that you have a scattershield installed and a driveshaft loop as stuff can get real at any time . . . . .

Put your efforts into learning about the suspension. Tell us in detail about what your front and rear suspension consists of and how you have it adjusted--are they adjustable?

I can't stress the value of a good working suspension enough . . . . . A little tweaking could make a car a super star (or it can make it a dud.)
Totally agree with the 6,500 RPM shift point. I have tried 32 psi in the tires and down the track (in 3rd gear only) the whole car wanted to veer to the right really hard. I had to really hold the wheel to prevent car from going into wall. I talked to a local shop and they thought that the wheel was spinning inside the wheel. So from then on I always ran at the track around 17 psi and the car never veered like that since.

I do have a Lakewood Safety Bellhousing and no driveshaft safety loop. The exhaust x-pipe is underneath the driveshaft do if it did fall it would be caught on the exhaust (I know it's definitely not safe).

For suspension (Front) I'm running total control products front coilover conversion Total Control Products
With an ADCO sway-bar. (Rear) I'm running Cal tracs mono leafspring with cal-tracs traction bars and varishock struts.
The front was originally lowered (like almost slammed to ground) with camber and toe in for handling. The car is raked in the rear probably about an inch or two which is definitely hurting weight transfer. According to what I've heard is that I need to raise the front end up at least an inch or two. It's adjustable (with spanner wrenches), then take it to get aligned, unbolt the front sway-bar (for weight transfer)and have the camber and toe in zero'd out. The rear cal-tracs need adjustment I'm sure.
I'm currently deployed in sandland and won't be back until January, but I'm looking forward to tinkering, spending some cash, and playing with it when I get back. I also heard that running pizza cutters up front is less rolling mass, wind resistance mass and can knock off a few tenths of a second. Have you had experience with pizza cutters? Thanks again, I really appreciate the knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
wOULD LIKE TO SEE HEADS FLOW NUMBERS at each lift point .1 .2 .3 etc myself before selecting a cam. Things like flow only increasing say a few cfm between say .5 and .6 lift it might not make a big difference to increase lift possible to gain a bit of higher RPM power but loose a lot of low end. Dont know what valve springs your using but i run beehives 140 seat pressure and like 460 open on a hyd roller street with titianium retainers. Went from 6400 valve float dual springs to 7800 RPM with the beehive.
In my case first shift testing increasing rpm 200 RPM AT A TIME STARTLING AT 6400 got to 7200 RPM first to second with an AOD blew the 8.8 all over the road in front of the local ford dealer.

tOPPING OUT AT FIRST AND SECOND GETTING LOSE why things like front end still up real high causing the front to get loose
I don't have head flow chart or graph. The builder had them ported elsewhere and all he told me was the numbers @ 600 lift; 308 CFM and 224 CFM. By the way my car was done at R&E racing in Lancaster California just in case anyone was wondering. It took longer than I expected to complete the car, but that's a whole nother story. Seems like you know how to get the most out of your valve train. The builder did say he shimmed the valve springs to make them actuate faster. I believe they are probably matching springs for the cam: comp cams part number 35-601-8 35-601-8 - Thumpr? Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshafts I can check with the builder to verify though.
 

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I talked to a local shop and they thought that the wheel was spinning inside the wheel.
???????? Don't understand.

I do have a Lakewood Safety Bellhousing and no driveshaft safety loop. The exhaust x-pipe is underneath the driveshaft do if it did fall it would be caught on the exhaust (I know it's definitely not safe).
The loop also keeps you from personal contact with the shaft. The shaft can beat the living crap out of a tunnel.

For suspension (Front) I'm running total control products front coilover conversion Total Control Products
With an ADCO sway-bar. (Rear) I'm running Cal tracs mono leafspring with cal-tracs traction bars and varishock struts.
The front was originally lowered (like almost slammed to ground) with camber and toe in for handling. The car is raked in the rear probably about an inch or two which is definitely hurting weight transfer. According to what I've heard is that I need to raise the front end up at least an inch or two. It's adjustable (with spanner wrenches), then take it to get aligned, unbolt the front sway-bar (for weight transfer)and have the camber and toe in zero'd out. The rear cal-tracs need adjustment I'm sure.
Add 4-5 degrees of caster to that alignment and the car should go straight down the track.

The suspension, both front and rear should work freely with no bind. I am not familiar with your TCP setup, but to help weight transfer it might be advantageous to install weaker coils which wouldn't have come with a road race setup. If the front shocks are adjustable, good-especially if they are double adjustable. Not sure that raising the front end would be beneficial, but it would certainly affect the car from going straight down the track. Dropping the end of the front sway bar would be good. I eventually just left mine off.

The Calvert setup on the rear is good stuff. I suggest putting the Caltrac bar in the lower hole with zero preload (with driver's weight in the seat.) That might help stop the spinning off the line. If the rear shocks are double adjustable, that is good too. They must also be long enough so that they never bottom out at launch or else it will lead to spinning. I recommend using shackles with through bolts and nylocs. The nylocs are left a little loose on purpose so the shackles can pivot without the bolt needing to rotate. I also do the same at the front of the leaf springs too.

Is your battery mounted in the trunk? Putting it on the passenger's side helps both weight transfer and traction as does adding additional ballast.

A camera is your friend. Try to get some video of the launch and run from different angles. There is a ton of stuff to learn from them.

I'm currently deployed in sandland
Thank you for your service.

I also heard that running pizza cutters up front is less rolling mass, wind resistance mass and can knock off a few tenths of a second. Have you had experience with pizza cutters?
No experience with them but would be worth a few hundredths. Tenths only if all the wheels are light weight. I'm more into the stock look and that is why my turd is so darn heavy. I run stock type steel wheels for the classic nostalgia look.

Street look with 8" rear rims:



The drag slicks are also mounted on similar 10" wide steel rims which give the car a nice rake:

 
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