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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

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Originally Posted by chas319 View Post
It looks like your cam is walking out to the front and rubbing pretty good on the cover. I would also do the water pump and t-stat but you may also want to get the radiator rodded out too. That may be a big problem with it running hot. On that old of a truck you may not know what was ever done and if anything was ever replaced. Maybe just a tune up may help alot.
What can be done about the cam walking out short of a rebuild?
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Something else:

Got the oil pan off an what I found on the bottom was a bunch of broken, plastic gear teeth. Can anyone hazard a guess as to what they are from? I'm hoping they are pieces of an old timing set that a previous owner didn't pull out of the pan.





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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 02:01 PM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Yup. They are pieces of an old timing set.
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 03:33 PM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Should be a keeper plate that is behind the timing set that hold the cam in. Maybe the depth of the gear set has your fuel pump ring pushed out to far. Just looks like a lot of wear to me. Maybe more of these 400 guys may know more.

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

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Originally Posted by chas319 View Post
Should be a keeper plate that is behind the timing set that hold the cam in. Maybe the depth of the gear set has your fuel pump ring pushed out to far. Just looks like a lot of wear to me. Maybe more of these 400 guys may know more.
What's interesting is there's another circle of wear on the other side...I guess it might be from the water pump impeller-thingy?
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 11:37 PM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

It's running hot because the timing chain was slack which made your cam timing very retarded. Those little pieces look to be part of the original nylon timing set. If I were to pop off a timing cover and see missing teeth, the oil pan would come off without hesitation. That means whoever put on the current set did crappy work and if anything else was done to the engine, it probably wasn't done properly either.

Also looks like they didn't put thread lock on the cam retainer bolts because there's no way that fuel eccentric should be rubbing on your cover. That or they didn't get the cam gear all the way on.

Given that this engine has worn out two timing chains and obviously never had the oil pan off, I can say without a doubt that the bearings are shot and that's why you have low oil pressure. Oil pump could be pretty worn too. To wear out two timing chains this engine has likely 175k-200k on it at least.

No question it really needs a complete rebuild. Could it make it to Killeen with just the new timing set?... Probably, but run it with Valvoline 20/50 oil or 10/40 with a quart of Lucas. 20/50 is what I use here in the summer anyway. Once you get it here, a complete rebuild is a must or more problems will continue to pop up.

Don't let that dissuade you though. What some guys consider to be a "budget rebuild" entails exotic parts and $3,500. And those engines are less realistic as street engines. What I'm describing is a realistic engine that's basically stock, with only the essential upgrades (cam, intake, exhaust). This will make the engine much more powerful than stock and with better mileage. But isn't a 400 horsepower monster that makes a lowsy driver and sucks fuel. It is realistic budget-wise, street-wise, and skill-wise for most backyard wrench turners and will still have more power than most folks really want/need.

To me a quality budget rebuild including the machining and stock rebuild heads should be under $1,200. And that is with good Federal-Mogul and Comp parts not cheapy rebuilder junk. The only thing I don't do myself is the machining and that rarely costs me over $250 (sonic/magnaflux, bore/hone, deck, align bore), about $300 for a Federal-Mogul rebuild kit, $200 for a mild Comp cam/lifter kit, and about $350 for the heads rebuilt (I usually do this myself spending about $150-$175 on parts.)
This way, since you spent a little extra on the cam already, you can buy the carb/intake/headers as you can afford them without having to get back into the engine.


1964 Galaxie 500 4dr 289, 1967 Galaxie 500 fastback 460, 1968 Fairlane 500 302
1969 Montego MX 410, 1971 F100 400, 1979 F250 400

Last edited by Tex; 05-02-2010 at 11:44 PM.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-03-2010, 03:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Thanks for the insight Tex. I did buy a new oil pump and filter, and I dont believe there was any thread lock on the cam retaining bolt, at least not that I saw.

I do want to do a rebuild...and before it starts eating up my new parts. As far as what I want to do with it - it will still be a daily driver. Just a fun truck with a little rumble under the hood.

Last edited by SoCalExile; 05-03-2010 at 03:09 AM.
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Then a stock rebuild with a mild Comp or Crane cam (256 or 262) will be perfect for you. Then later on when you have more cash and if you want more power, you'll be all set for the 4 bbl induction and headers.

Keep us updated and post if you have any problems with the timing set install.


1964 Galaxie 500 4dr 289, 1967 Galaxie 500 fastback 460, 1968 Fairlane 500 302
1969 Montego MX 410, 1971 F100 400, 1979 F250 400
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-06-2010, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Finally got the new timing set in. I put it in then realized that I only set it to stock timing and didn't set the cam dot to the correct mark on the crank sprocket (I lined up the cam sprocket to the triangle). So I called Comp Cams to double check that I had it wrong and then pulled the cover off again and set the cam dot to the correct mark (the o)

So now it's back together with a new timing set, water pump, thermostat, fuel pump and oil pump/sender.

One thing this truck had was that the spark plug wires were moved one port clockwise on the dizzy cap. After not getting a cylinder firing while starting it, I checked the rotor and it was back to the stock #1 contact on the cap! I adjusted the wired back to stock and now I get a couple pops but the motor still won't catch. A strong fuel smell makes me think it may be flooded so I hung it up for the night.

Any ideas as to what else it may be?

Last edited by SoCalExile; 05-06-2010 at 06:06 PM.
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-06-2010, 07:18 PM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Oh man! You had it right the first time. The triangle is what you wanted as that is the 4* advance. The O means 0*. Leaving it at that setting still leaves you with a severely retarded camshaft and you haven't accomplished anything.

What Comp told you is right only if you are using one of their new camshafts which have the advance built in. With the stock cam you have to use the 4* advance the triangle on the timing set gives you.


1964 Galaxie 500 4dr 289, 1967 Galaxie 500 fastback 460, 1968 Fairlane 500 302
1969 Montego MX 410, 1971 F100 400, 1979 F250 400

Last edited by Tex; 05-06-2010 at 09:55 PM.
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-07-2010, 03:38 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

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Originally Posted by Tex View Post
Oh man! You had it right the first time. The triangle is what you wanted as that is the 4* advance. The O means 0*. Leaving it at that setting still leaves you with a severely retarded camshaft and you haven't accomplished anything.

What Comp told you is right only if you are using one of their new camshafts which have the advance built in. With the stock cam you have to use the 4* advance the triangle on the timing set gives you.
Ok lemme explain a little better:

I set the crank key in the slot with the triangle and I never changed that.
What I initially did was line up the cam dot with the triangle (and the crank key) which just left me with the stock timing. I then went back and all I did was unchain the cam and rotated the crank till the 0 mark on the crank sprocket was lined up with the dot on the cam sprocket, thus, the crank key wasn't lined up with the cam dot and that gives me the 4* of advance.

Correct?

If not, what slot should the crank key be lined up with and what mark should the cam dot be lined up with?

Last edited by SoCalExile; 05-07-2010 at 03:56 AM.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-07-2010, 06:10 AM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

The crank key should always be nearly lined up with the cam sprocket marker. The triangle is what you should have line up with. By putting the triangle on the key (which is correct) then rotating around to line up with the O marker, your cam is now 120* off. That's why your engine won't fire. Hopefully you haven't smashed any valves with the pistons. Did you rotate the engine by hand before you started it to see if there was any place it felt like things hit.

If you look at the 3 different keyways on the the crank sprocket, you will see that the O is right under a tooth, the triangle is slightly offset from being right under a tooth. That slight offset is your 4*.


1964 Galaxie 500 4dr 289, 1967 Galaxie 500 fastback 460, 1968 Fairlane 500 302
1969 Montego MX 410, 1971 F100 400, 1979 F250 400
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-07-2010, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Quote:
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The crank key should always be nearly lined up with the cam sprocket marker. The triangle is what you should have line up with. By putting the triangle on the key (which is correct) then rotating around to line up with the O marker, your cam is now 120* off. That's why your engine won't fire. Hopefully you haven't smashed any valves with the pistons. Did you rotate the engine by hand before you started it to see if there was any place it felt like things hit.

If you look at the 3 different keyways on the the crank sprocket, you will see that the O is right under a tooth, the triangle is slightly offset from being right under a tooth. That slight offset is your 4*.
Thanks. Just goes to show that it pays to fully understand the directions before you do anything.

Doh!

Once I get it fixed, how can I tell if I messed up a valve or something from it being so far out of time?

Last edited by SoCalExile; 05-07-2010 at 07:22 AM.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-07-2010, 08:37 AM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

If you kissed the valves then you'll likely know pretty much when it fires off...

Misfiring and popping through the carb etc... Like the valves are out of adjustment.

Before firing you can blow air into each plug hole at TDC and if you hear air whistling out the pipes or up into the intake then you got issues.

A compression check prior to starting will show something is amiss too usually.
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-07-2010, 05:43 PM
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Re: New guy with a old truck and motor

Yeah man, I should have given you more explicit instructions. I've just done this so many times I take some knowledge for granted. That's one of the problems with guiding someone through a process via internet. It's hard to know everyone's background and experience. I should have been more step-by-step instead of just saying "install the timing set 4* advance."

And calling Comp was a smart move on your part since you knew what you didn't know and sought advice from the manufacturer. Only problem is, they always recommend the O setting for two reasons. 1. If it's one of their new cams (which they often assume) then it's already set with 106* for the O setting. 2. If they recommend the stock O setting (even if it is a lousy 109* or other retarded spec) they know it's a safe setting and no valves will hit anything. Either way their butts are covered. The way they see it, changing ANY cam's timing is a risk assumed by the installer. They will give you the means to do it, but that's were their participation stops.

And true, if you are advancing a cam in an unknown setup, ALWAYS, ALWAYS degree in the cam just like the instructions say. But since this is a setup I've done numerous times (and I did degree it in the first few times) I know it's not only safe but effective. That's why I said just bolt in and line up with the 4* advance. Hopefully no valves were "kissed" as FE so eloquently put it. But in the event that some were, well, seeing that the engine is in dire need of a complete rebuild, those valves and pistons were not long for this world anyway. Maybe it's a good this you tried this mod on a worn engine instead of a freshly machined one. You made a mistake, you learned, and you didn't ruin any new or expensive parts. Just keep in mind, that key in the crank snout is always what you go by when positioning the crank. It might be 4* right or 4* left (depending on the sprocket keyway) but it will always near the 12:00 position when the cam is at 6:00.

But let's hope nothing was harmed and that engine can putt it's way to Killeen. Wish Fort Hood was closer so I could give you a hand, but it's a good two hours from Fort Worth.


1964 Galaxie 500 4dr 289, 1967 Galaxie 500 fastback 460, 1968 Fairlane 500 302
1969 Montego MX 410, 1971 F100 400, 1979 F250 400

Last edited by Tex; 05-07-2010 at 05:49 PM.
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